South East Asia Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Re: ASEAN military news

ior187 said:

1.)There were many choices, but there were many factors that stalled PI military modernization. Commies and corrupt politicos, '97 Crisis, and the insurgency that kept PI bleeding.

2.)The PH Navy could have bought these corvettes, but what they needed are frigates to complement their Minimum Credible Defence Force.

Anyway, since this is a government-to-government deal, do you think the Italian officials would agree to pay PH DoD officials their kickback?

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Why would a govt-2-govt deal be kickback proof? Do you honestly feel the price of the package is a fair deal in light of the age of the ships, in light of Italy's weak economy, in light of the weak Euro, in light of what other new vessels are available out there? Why would only frigates be able to complement MCDF? The reality is the MCDF's focus would be in the SCS so home support ain't that far off.

Re: ASEAN military news

joshuatree said:

Why would a govt-2-govt deal be kickback proof?
Do you honestly feel the price of the package is a fair deal in light of the age of the ships, in light of Italy's weak economy, in light of the weak Euro, in light of what other new vessels are available out there? Why would only frigates be able to complement MCDF? The reality is the MCDF's focus would be in the SCS so home support ain't that far off.

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The 2005-2008 upgrades costed Italy 217 euros for the upgrade of 4 frigates and 2 destroyers. That would be 53 million dollars each ship, and comparing with 137.5 million dollars acquisition and refurb cost, what do you think?

It is because they needed it ASAP.

MCDF does not consist only of frigates. There are also plans of getting corvettes, OPVs, and SSVs.

Re: ASEAN military news

ior187 said:

The 2005-2008 upgrades costed Italy 217 euros for the upgrade of 4 frigates and 2 destroyers. That would be 53 million dollars each ship, and comparing with 137.5 million dollars acquisition and refurb cost, what do you think?

It is because they needed it ASAP.

MCDF does not consist only of frigates. There are also plans of getting corvettes, OPVs, and SSVs.

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Can you post the details of the Italian upgrades to see what they got for their money? I somehow thing it will be a great deal more than what the Philippines will get with this deal.

In addition, why does the Philippines need those ships ASAP? What actually difference would those ships make in the region even if they were delivered today?

Re: ASEAN military news

ior187 said:

The 2005-2008 upgrades costed Italy 217 euros for the upgrade of 4 frigates and 2 destroyers. That would be 53 million dollars each ship, and comparing with 137.5 million dollars acquisition and refurb cost, what do you think?

It is because they needed it ASAP.

MCDF does not consist only of frigates. There are also plans of getting corvettes, OPVs, and SSVs.

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plawolf said:

Can you post the details of the Italian upgrades to see what they got for their money? I somehow thing it will be a great deal more than what the Philippines will get with this deal.

In addition, why does the Philippines need those ships ASAP? What actually difference would those ships make in the region even if they were delivered today?

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From what I can find online, it appears to be a reference to four of the Maelstrale class frigates receiving some engine overhaul and upgrades to weapon/comm/radar systems in 2005. It was a 22 month modernization effort. Libeccio F572, Scirocco F573, Espiro F576, Zeffiro F577 appear to be the units receiving the upgrades and won't be decommissioned till ~2016. I would agree that this is a far better deal. Of course, I'm sure some will counterpoint that acquisition costs were not included. But more searching online finds me that Italy offered to Peru in 2009 Maelstrale F570 and Grecale F571 for $50M, Euro or USD I don't know. It would have been available for delivery in 2011. Finding this info if true only makes the current deal look even worse.

Yeah, I don't understand the ASAP argument either because the ships won't be delivered ASAP. It would be late 2013 at the earliest pending no delays in the refurb process. If those trio of Nakhoda Ragam class corvettes are still looking for buyers, that's more ASAP available. I think I would have understood the Italian deal better had there been some cross-shopping but that didn't happen. Look on the air force side, they cross-shopped and even turned down refurbing F-16s saying it was more expensive that way before ordering the TA-50s which isn't ASAP.

Re: ASEAN military news

In addition to the 2 Maestrale class frigates, there are also 2 Minerva class Corvettes/OPV that are in the final stage of negotiations with italy by the DND under the P11.7 Billion agreed amount ...

Re: ASEAN military news

joshuatree said:

Yeah, I don't understand the ASAP argument either because the ships won't be delivered ASAP. It would be late 2013 at the earliest pending no delays in the refurb process. If those trio of Nakhoda Ragam class corvettes are still looking for buyers, that's more ASAP available. I think I would have understood the Italian deal better had there been some cross-shopping but that didn't happen. Look on the air force side, they cross-shopped and even turned down refurbing F-16s saying it was more expensive that way before ordering the TA-50s which isn't ASAP.

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Probably the difference in time span between a new built and a refurnished one...but it's just a faster delivery timeline, nothing more - it'll take about 1 year or 2 to finish the work before delivery, plus 1 year at least before IOC.

Re: ASEAN military news

ManilaBoy45 said:

In addition to the 2 Maestrale class frigates, there are also 2 Minerva class Corvettes/OPV that are in the final stage of negotiations with italy by the DND under the P11.7 Billion agreed amount ...

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It actually sounds like the 2 Minerva class in negotiations are separate from the P11.7 billion deal for the 2 Maelstrale class.

Re: ASEAN military news

joshuatree said:

From what I can find online, it appears to be a reference to four of the Maelstrale class frigates receiving some engine overhaul and upgrades to weapon/comm/radar systems in 2005. It was a 22 month modernization effort. Libeccio F572, Scirocco F573, Espiro F576, Zeffiro F577 appear to be the units receiving the upgrades and won't be decommissioned till ~2016. I would agree that this is a far better deal. Of course, I'm sure some will counterpoint that acquisition costs were not included. But more searching online finds me that Italy offered to Peru in 2009 Maelstrale F570 and Grecale F571 for $50M, Euro or USD I don't know. It would have been available for delivery in 2011. Finding this info if true only makes the current deal look even worse.

Yeah, I don't understand the ASAP argument either because the ships won't be delivered ASAP. It would be late 2013 at the earliest pending no delays in the refurb process. If those trio of Nakhoda Ragam class corvettes are still looking for buyers, that's more ASAP available. I think I would have understood the Italian deal better had there been some cross-shopping but that didn't happen. Look on the air force side, they cross-shopped and even turned down refurbing F-16s saying it was more expensive that way before ordering the TA-50s which isn't ASAP.

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Was it specified that the Maestrales offered to Peru are to be given bare?

I don't know really, but I think it's because PN has set a goal that before 2020 it should have achieved the Minimum Credible Defence Force.

Re: ASEAN military news

ior187 said:

Was it specified that the Maestrales offered to Peru are to be given bare?

I don't know really, but I think it's because PN has set a goal that before 2020 it should have achieved the Minimum Credible Defence Force.

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There were no specifics but I assumed the offer to Peru were the ships AS-IS. That would put the PH deal at over $150 million for refurbishing. If I had assumed the Peru offer at $50 million included refurbishing, that would make the PH deal even that much worse.

Re: ASEAN military news

joshuatree said:

There were no specifics but I assumed the offer to Peru were the ships AS-IS. That would put the PH deal at over $150 million for refurbishing. If I had assumed the Peru offer at $50 million included refurbishing, that would make the PH deal even that much worse.

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From what I learned online, I assume that the 50 million offer to Peru were bare boats. Price is almost similar to Type 22 Chilean deal of 45 million USD bare-boat.