South East Asia Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

joshuatree

Captain
Re: ASEAN military news

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To further enhance the country's presence in the South China Sea, the Legislative Yuan has suggested that the Bureau of Mines under the Ministry of Economic Affairs should send an ocean survey ship to explore for oil or natural gas reserves believed to under the seabed in the area.
 

ManilaBoy45

Junior Member
Re: ASEAN military news

Or you can always go talk to the stronger military power and come up with a compromise, instead of buying military hardware which it will never have a chance to match up.

Sure, a compromise that will most likely be one sided towards the stronger military nation ...
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: ASEAN military news

Sure, a compromise that will most likely be one sided towards the stronger military nation ...

China has settled its landborders with Russia... if you knew anything... that was the longest and most difficult to settle in the world.
China didn';t get everything it wants nor did russia, but they did settle for the good of the long run.

Also China did settle the land border with Vietnam... if you kneow they fought a war over these borders late 70s and 80s and the memory is still fresh. but they did settle the land border part.

if Pinoy was any smarter they would sit down and negotiate instead of acting like spoiled rats.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: ASEAN military news

China has settled its landborders with Russia... if you knew anything... that was the longest and most difficult to settle in the world.
China didn';t get everything it wants nor did russia, but they did settle for the good of the long run.

Also China did settle the land border with Vietnam... if you kneow they fought a war over these borders late 70s and 80s and the memory is still fresh. but they did settle the land border part.

if Pinoy was any smarter they would sit down and negotiate instead of acting like spoiled rats.

Yep, in many of those settlements, China was very generous. However going around and loud mouthing yourself is really not going to solve anything, especially when you are SO much weaker than others, while at the same time, no one else is really wanting to back you up.

Trust me, bankrupting your nation on old warships will only benefit China, the normal people like yourself, will never benefit from it.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Re: ASEAN military news

China has settled its landborders with Russia... if you knew anything... that was the longest and most difficult to settle in the world.
China didn';t get everything it wants nor did russia, but they did settle for the good of the long run.

Also China did settle the land border with Vietnam... if you kneow they fought a war over these borders late 70s and 80s and the memory is still fresh. but they did settle the land border part.

if Pinoy was any smarter they would sit down and negotiate instead of acting like spoiled rats.


The border settlement between China and Russia also is proof against the vilification that China just wants to grab everything in sight. People who've delved a little into the history on this will know that China conceded a huge amount of territory up north in unequal treaties of the past (which is just a fancy word for being forced to accept terms under the gun).

I think Vietnam and China also were able to agree upon maritime boundaries between Northern Vietnam and Hainan Island.

What I really don't get from the Philippine's stance is what's the obsession with not even engaging in bilateral talks? Wouldn't talks that don't result in something acceptable simply involve the Filipinos walking away from the talks?

When the Philippines insist on multilateral talks, the approach used so far isn't really multilateral. It's more of a "let's try to gang up on China" tactic. Because I haven't heard one peep from the Philippines about their grievances on territorial disputes with the other claimants. How does one realistically expect resolution of territorial disputes when nothing is heard about regarding the other claimants? The more media attacks the Philippines attempts, the more resistance it will generate. It only makes the average Chinese even less sympathetic to the Philippine's protest. This is in turn actually gives the Chinese gov't less room to bargain because they now can't be seen as being week. Ditto for the Philippine gov't if they keep up the media act because their populace will also expect no grounds being given up. One of the main attack strategy is to accuse China of not going to ITLOS, therefore China is not a law abiding country. Well guess what, it's been an interesting month as just recently, the US, SK, and Japan conducted joint exercises to show solidarity. We now have SK and Japan at each other's throats over Dokdo with Japan also demanding Dokdo be taken up in ITLOS and SK flat out rejecting.
 

Geographer

Junior Member
Re: ASEAN military news

if Pinoy was any smarter they would sit down and negotiate instead of acting like spoiled rats.
I agree that private negotiations would yield a far more favorable outcome for the Philippines than their nationalist chest-thumping and haranguing of China. The record of private negotiations with China regarding border disputes has been positive for Vietnam, Russia, and Tajikistan. Those countries have resolved age-old border disputes without conflict. China has shown genuine eagerness to resolve territorial disputes in a fair manner. I recommend M. Taylor Fravel's book on China's territorial disputes called "Strong Borders, Secure Nation" for a background on China's territorial disputes.

But when the Philippines and Vietnam berate China at ASEAN forums and the UN, or worse, drag America into the dispute, China's government has little choice but to match their rhetoric. China's citizenry is intensely nationalistic and will not tolerate any apparent weakness by the government in foreign affairs, as anyone familiar with this forum should know. Anti-China statements by the Philippines and Vietnam send those nationalist Chinese into a frenzy. This is risky for Vietnam and the Philippines because they are much weaker economically and militarily than China.

The Philippines and Vietnam should be doing everything possible to avoid a shooting war because there is but one outcome for such a war: total defeat to China in the South China Sea. They would lose hundreds of lives, many ships, and possibly all of their Spratly Island possessions. Instead, they seem to making statements and taking actions that increase the likelihood of a shooting war. My analysis in the case of the Philippines is they hope a shooting war will give them the opportunity to be the victim of "communist aggression" and beg the United States to back them up. I'm not sure what's going on with Vietnam's leadership because there is no way the USN would come to the aid of Vietnam in a Sino-Vietnamese clash. Maybe Hanoi fear the same ultra-nationalist citizens Beijing does.

By the way, what are China and Taiwan's positions on ownership of the Dokdo Islands? It seems like China could swap recognition of South Korea's claim to the Dokdo Islands for South Korea's recognition of China's (maybe the Republic of China to make it palatable to domestic conservatives and the United States) claim to the Diaoyu Islands. It'd be a way for South Korea to bolster its position and stick it to Japan. China would strengthen its claim to the Diaoyu Islands and improve its relationship with South Korea, which is a more realistic future ally than Japan.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: ASEAN military news

What I really don't get from the Philippine's stance is what's the obsession with not even engaging in bilateral talks? Wouldn't talks that don't result in something acceptable simply involve the Filipinos walking away from the talks?

When the Philippines insist on multilateral talks, the approach used so far isn't really multilateral. It's more of a "let's try to gang up on China" tactic. Because I haven't heard one peep from the Philippines about their grievances on territorial disputes with the other claimants. How does one realistically expect resolution of territorial disputes when nothing is heard about regarding the other claimants? The more media attacks the Philippines attempts, the more resistance it will generate. It only makes the average Chinese even less sympathetic to the Philippine's protest. This is in turn actually gives the Chinese gov't less room to bargain because they now can't be seen as being week. Ditto for the Philippine gov't if they keep up the media act because their populace will also expect no grounds being given up. One of the main attack strategy is to accuse China of not going to ITLOS, therefore China is not a law abiding country. Well guess what, it's been an interesting month as just recently, the US, SK, and Japan conducted joint exercises to show solidarity. We now have SK and Japan at each other's throats over Dokdo with Japan also demanding Dokdo be taken up in ITLOS and SK flat out rejecting.

You don't understand the Philippines' tactics because you are working under the mistaken assumption that the Philippines wants to resolve the dispute.

Just look at the timing and the circumstances surrounding the recent stand-off over Scarborough Shoal. The Philippines were having massively damaging internal political scandals. Then the Philippines air force detects some Chinese fishing boats near Scarborough Shoal, the Philippines dispatches not a coast guard patrol ship, but the flagship of their navy to arrest the fishermen. The PN flagship gets on scene, and even boards the Chinese fishing boats, yet somehow fails to make any arrests for over a day and just sits there waiting.

Only after the unarmed Chinese civilian monitoring ships arrive, does the PN make a token attempt to arrest the Chinese fishermen.

When you look at the bare facts as reported by the Philippines themselves (before they changed their story), it really boggles the mind how anyone can buy the preposterous Philippines official version of events and not see their actions for what it was - a casebook example of the fabled diversionary tactic that the western media accuse China of doing every time it doesn't roll over on any international dispute.

The insistence for multi-party talks and taking the case to the ITLOS are just more obvious ploys whereby the Philippines are making demands that they know full well China would never accept for precisely that reason - so that they can point the finger at China when they reject the Philippines' unrealistic conditions and try to make it look like China who is the one that does not want to settle the dispute.

When you consider the blatant bias and duplicity the west has shown in their reporting of the issue and even supporting the Philippines' frankly ridiculous claims (which basically boils down to, 'we quietly sent people to some islands in the late 90s [after oil and gas were discovered in the area] to remove/destroy Chinese territorial markers and place Philippines one on the islands in their place, and China didn't notice so those islands are ours now'), is it any wonder that China has no confidence that a western dominated body like ITLOS will deliver a remotely fair ruling if given the chance?
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: ASEAN military news

By the way, what are China and Taiwan's positions on ownership of the Dokdo Islands?

agree with everything you said.

more rethoric means more impossible for anyone to step down.

I believe China is un-officially coordinating with SK on demarcation in East China Sea, I would not be surprised if Dokdo was part of the deal. official version is still that Japan's territory include only the 4 home island as stipulated by Potsdam.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Re: ASEAN military news

You don't understand the Philippines' tactics because you are working under the mistaken assumption that the Philippines wants to resolve the dispute.....


No, I actually understand that it's also a tactic to divert attention from domestic issues. But that's been happening elsewhere too such as South Korea and Japan, China too. So I base my questioning on the premise that if the Philippines really wanted to resolve the disputes, why the fear to even just discuss bilaterally. As I already stated, one can walk away from terms that are not acceptable.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Re: ASEAN military news

agree with everything you said.

more rethoric means more impossible for anyone to step down.

I believe China is un-officially coordinating with SK on demarcation in East China Sea, I would not be surprised if Dokdo was part of the deal. official version is still that Japan's territory include only the 4 home island as stipulated by Potsdam.

Yep, making peace with SK is in China's great interest, because I find the Korean people extremely nationalistic, they kinda have this superiority/inferiority complex that make them hate everyone and them they themselves are the greatest.

Now if there is only China and SK, then they won't pose a challenge to China at all, but when the situation is messy as now, I think it is a good idea to not anger the Koreans. A better reason to make friend with them, since they are supposedly allied with Japan and US.
 
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