Significance of the Al Khalid

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darth sidious

Banned Idiot
adeptitus said:
IMO the Finnish tank conversion is a very ingenuous use of old T-54/T-55 chasis. The Israelis are also masters at this. They have a lot of old US made M113 APC's and captured T-54/T-55 tanks, and found that the M113's could be destroyed by a RPG round. So they converted the T-54/T-55's to APC's:
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And the M113 APC's to air defense units:
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The M113 was originally armed with just a machinegun. They replaced it with a 20mm Volcan gun, EL/M 2106 radar, and 4xSAM launcher box.

The General Dynamics 20mm Vulcan gun can fire at rate of 3,000 rounds/min. Armed with APDS rounds, it has an effective range of up to 3.5km.

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So the original question was Pakistani's ground force's anti-air capability. According to Pakistani defense web site, Pakistani has over 850 M-113P with local manufacturing facility:
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Plus pending order for up to 2,000 "Talha" APC's by 2010:
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IMO there's no reason why they cannot copy Israeli concept and convert some APC's to short-range anti-air units. They can purchase technology from the PRC, such as those used on the TY-90:
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Just add some AA guns to it and you're good to go.

========

Here's one more T-55 tank conversion (recycled chasis?) from Poland:
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The S-125/Newa SC replaces old SA-3 system with updated digital electronics, and mount the missile launcher on a T-55 chasis.

Yugoslavia was known to operate 14 SA-3 batteires with ~60 launchers, credited with a F-117 downing.
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I not sure the sa-3 could qualify as a effective anti-aircraft weapon
most of the stuff you mentioned here can be seen as a form of updated WWIIquad cannon mounted on tank hulls

but pak manpad didi manae to shoot down one indian MIg-23 proveing it atlest have some anti-air ability

PS does any one have info on the serbian truck mounted R-73 missile
it does not appear to have a radar attached how does it even aquire its target
 
crazyinsane105

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
darth sidious said:
I not sure the sa-3 could qualify as a effective anti-aircraft weapon
most of the stuff you mentioned here can be seen as a form of updated WWIIquad cannon mounted on tank hulls

but pak manpad didi manae to shoot down one indian MIg-23 proveing it atlest have some anti-air ability

PS does any one have info on the serbian truck mounted R-73 missile
it does not appear to have a radar attached how does it even aquire its target
Click to expand...

The Pakistani manpad shot down a Mig-23 and a Mig-27.
 
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ArjunMk1

Junior Member
crazyinsane105 said:
The Pakistani manpad shot down a Mig-23 and a Mig-27.
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Actually a Mig23 and a Mi17 chopper was shot down by manpad , the other jet crashed due to engine problems !!!
 
crazyinsane105

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
ArjunMk1 said:
Actually a Mig23 and a Mi17 chopper was shot down by manpad , the other jet crashed due to engine problems !!!
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From Wikepedia:

Anza MKII

It appears to have incorporated US FIM-92 Stinger technology into the missile indirectly via the Chinese QW-1. Entered service with the Pakistani army in September 1994. Has been produced in Pakistan since October 1994. The missile can be ready from the march in less than 10 seconds, and from a standby state in less than 3.5 seconds. The battery has a life of about 50 seconds.

It has been used in combat during the 1999 Kargil conflict with India; it downed a Mi-17 helicopter and a MiG-27 jet and it also damaged a Canberra bomber.
 
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xihaoli

New Member
Hmm......Al-Khalid -> .50cal machine guns -> mobile low level missile defences and AA + some crap about how Iraqis can't fight? A little off topic don't you think?

Personally i think the Al-Khalid represents to the Pakistani Army what the Khalid (Agosta 90B) means to the navy.

They both represent "decent" technology, the Agosta more then the Al-Khalid of couse, and basically represents a huge boost in Pakistani indigenious designs. Remeber, anything imported can, and probrably will be compromised and used agunist you (747 bugginngs...especially true for electronics) The ToT transfers are similar to the transfer of t-34 and mig-17 productions to china during the sino-russian "honeymoon" period. It aint the best....it aint the cheapest.....it ain't nothin to be proud of.....but its a start. (091s.....)

Although the issue of wartime production may seem insignifigent due to modern flanking/blizkreig warfare, (Yes the americans used this during GWI, two thrusts, one from SA and one from Isreal/Turkey = one messed up Iraqi armed forces forced to retreat) and the small landmass of Pakistan, it may ultimately decide the nation's ability to recover and sustain it self during and after a future conlfict with its neighbors. Besides, its always cheaper to make it yourself instead of importing it from others for a loss..... The new t-55/59 upgrade definitely has traits of the Al-Khalid (turret shape, gun, fire control?)
 
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Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
PS does any one have info on the serbian truck mounted R-73 missile
it does not appear to have a radar attached how does it even aquire its target
Click to expand...

It was an emergy adaption, not a full mass product thing. It aquires targets similar ways as MANPADS....wiht visual opservation...

BUt as someone said, we are bit offtopic now, lets make a new thread about different SAM systems and concerrate on Alkhalid on this one, shall we?
 
Indianfighter

Indianfighter

Junior Member
xihaoli said:
They both represent "decent" technology, the Agosta more then the Al-Khalid of couse, and basically represents a huge boost in Pakistani indigenious designs.
Click to expand...
No.Pakistan manufactured Agosta submarines under licence from France just like India manufactured MiG-21s under licence. They are not indigenous submarines of Pakistan.

Similary, the Al-Khalid is an upgrade of the Chinese Type-90 tank.
Considerable Chinese and Ukrainian input has gone into the tank (Ukraine provides engines).

But I would like someone to make some clarifications on the following claims on Al-Khalid :

1] "Navigation is assisted by the use of Global Positioning and Inertial Navigation Systems."
How does INS help in navigating a slow-moving tank ?

2] "It is the only tank that has the ability to auto-track the enemy's tanks."
What does auto-track enemy tanks mean, and is this claim true ?

3] "The Al-Khalid tank's performance is much better than the Russian T-90-S tank"
I dont believe its true.

Source:
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MIGleader

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
We could argue all day and night on whether the AL-khalid is superior to the t-90s or not. Frankly, i think the internal command systems of the al-khalid are superior to the ones on the t-90. Russian C&C is not up to date yet, even with all their modifications.THe 1A4GT is something that western tanks had by the first gulf war.

The Al khalid may be slightly more powerful then the improved 2A46M, but this may be nulled out by the t-90s ability to fire ATGMs such as Refleks. Armor plating is equal on the tanks, but the t-90 has Shtora for som extra defence.

Conclusion: The al-khlid has a good chance of getting the first hit on the t-90. When the t-90 is damaged, its advantages over the al-khalid are decresed.
 
Red not Dead

Red not Dead

Junior Member
VIP Professional
xihaoli said:
Hmm......Al-Khalid -> .50cal machine guns -> mobile low level missile defences and AA + some crap about how Iraqis can't fight? A little off topic don't you think?

Personally i think the Al-Khalid represents to the Pakistani Army what the Khalid (Agosta 90B) means to the navy.

They both represent "decent" technology, the Agosta more then the Al-Khalid of couse, and basically represents a huge boost in Pakistani indigenious designs. Remeber, anything imported can, and probrably will be compromised and used agunist you (747 bugginngs...especially true for electronics) The ToT transfers are similar to the transfer of t-34 and mig-17 productions to china during the sino-russian "honeymoon" period. It aint the best....it aint the cheapest.....it ain't nothin to be proud of.....but its a start. (091s.....)

Although the issue of wartime production may seem insignifigent due to modern flanking/blizkreig warfare, (Yes the americans used this during GWI, two thrusts, one from SA and one from Isreal/Turkey = one messed up Iraqi armed forces forced to retreat) and the small landmass of Pakistan, it may ultimately decide the nation's ability to recover and sustain it self during and after a future conlfict with its neighbors. Besides, its always cheaper to make it yourself instead of importing it from others for a loss..... The new t-55/59 upgrade definitely has traits of the Al-Khalid (turret shape, gun, fire control?)
Click to expand...


the new type 59...is called the AL Zarrar.

And Migleader...how in the hell the "detection equipment could be better on the Al Khalid than on the T90s. You've yet got to make something as well implemented as the FINDERS BMS that was transposed on the T-90 as the "Nevski System". Granted it's the russian produced version of it but man are you sure the AL-Khalid has the latest up to date detection and recognition systems built in the West?

And btw the only autotrack is tracking back a lazing tank. That works like that...tank lases you for shot, your sensors signal the threat and your turret rotates at the direction of the laser source and fires or arms a round waiting for your comand. That's a freaking old feature in soviet tanks first implemented on T-80U. But the real auto-tracking tanks mean capting radio and heat sources wich is impossible without on board radar. Well that Radar is non existent in current tanks. And even GPS use is highly impossible to backtrack other tanks since the Indians will be probably using Glonass wich hasn't the same frequencies as the GPS system. So how in the world are you going to back up this miracle. You won't be on the same "planet". *******************? C'mon get real about this. and how the russian C&C isn't up to date yet? We're speaking about India right? What Russia has to do with that?

Mod edit: Lets be carefull with religious remarks shall we?
 
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ArjunMk1

Junior Member
Russia has more than 60 yrs of tanking experience , I don't think the Chinese C&C and Gun systems(in AlKhalid/Type 90) are superior than current Russian items !!! Neither the Ukranians can beat Russia , SORRY ....
 
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