Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

[FairAndUnbiased]

What dogfighting cope? You seen couple of old heads that retired before they get to hop into any 5th gen fighter and you think this is reflective of the current pilot culture in US? The US air doctrine literally threw all its eggs in the de-emphasis on dogfight agility doctrine with the f-35's DAS system. More and more pilots are being trained or retrained to fly f-35. A whole generation after these 2 old retirees think of combat doctrine entirely differently and more relevant with modern time.

can you help me understand why DAS is related to agility or how it improves BVR combat at the cost of WVR combat? It is a WVR IR sensor system that allows for 360 degree coverage, basically an electronic version of a bubble canopy that extends to the bottom of the aircraft. It doesn't seem to reduce the maneuverability of the aircraft, it specifically enhances WVR capabilities, and is not used for BVR combat.

 

[Blitzo]

View attachment 142427

Long belated, but probably useful:

 

[Ringsword]

If that's anywhere near reality, there is no more dogfighting cope. The adaptive rear stabilizers + full control surface wing trailing edge would mean that this thing is like an airborne Kung Fu master in WVR combat while VLO + supersonic characteristics would make it as slippery as a ninja.

Well ,China apparently got the CACGAD triangular "Imperial Star Destroyer" and the super maneuverable ShenGAD "Tie Fighter"-love it and I confess I am not a Star Wars fan-many nephews who love it so cross-contamination by watching movies with them and buying lots of their stuff.

 

[vincent]

Higher res

 

[Biscuits]

Honestly though, if dogfighting is bad why build aircraft like J-20 and this one?

Is it only because the characteristics that make them good at dogfighting are primarily meant to be used for supersonic manuevers during a BVR fight?

 

[ougoah]

That leaked presentation image showing the slide was back from the late 2010s iirc, not long after the induction of J-20 into PLAAF and performing lots of training and tactics development. It became extremely apparent that 5th gen dominated 4th gen and doctrines driven by BVR prevailed over those which emphasised WVR. PLAAF's own silent conclusions from playing with J-20 for over half a decade is revealed in doctrine which are slowly revealed through secondary observations like this CAC aircraft.

This of course isn't to say that turning performance is useless. There are dogfighting capable platforms and there are those that dominate BVR more than anything that has ever been flown by humans.

We should also remember that J-20 program started in the early 2000s. Same with the ATF that resulted in F-22. F-35 cannot dogfight anywhere near as well as the F-22 but I'm more inclined to believe the F-35 is a superior fighter overall compared to the F-22, considering the network.

 

[Temstar]

Honestly though, if dogfighting is bad why build aircraft like J-20 and this one?

Is it only because the characteristics that make them good at dogfighting are primarily meant to be used for supersonic manuevers during a BVR fight?

Because if you enjoy a generational advantage over the other guy with your 5th or 6th gen then you have an enormous, maybe even insurmountable advantage in BVR. If you give that up and instead engage in WVR where 5th gen or 6th gen may or may not have that much advantage against the more agile 4.5th gen like Flankers then you're doing it wrong.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Because if you enjoy a generational advantage over the other guy with your 5th or 6th gen then you have an enormous, maybe even insurmountable advantage in BVR. If you give that up and instead engage in WVR where 5th gen or 6th gen may or may not have that much advantage against the more agile 4.5th gen like Flankers then you're doing it wrong.

So what do you do when it's even generation?

 

[Temstar]

So what do you do when it's even generation?

I don't think that's known to the public. Obviously both US and China run 5th gen on 5th gen exercises to work out this exact scenario but how that air combat will look like is not public knowledge.

If you are implying due to stealth on both sides the range for BVR combat is much shorter and it wouldn't take much for combat to degrade into WVR dogfight it could be true, but it's also true J-20 is faster than F-35 and both of the 6th gen prototypes are faster than B-21 and can to some degree choose the engagement range.

 

[Blitzo]

So what do you do when it's even generation?

Same as what's being done now -- pursue the domains that bring with it the highest yields of increased A2A capability:
- signature reduction
- better sensors, better EW
- better networking
- better weapons
- better power generation

Think about it this way -- for 5th generation aircraft that are receiving upgrades like F-35 Block 4, the most important upgrades it is receiving are the aforementioned domains. They're not prioritizing improving the F-35's kinematic performance greatly, they're not giving it TVC or increasing its G rating further etc.
Even in the case of J-20A compared to J-20, it is receiving substantial improvements to those domains (and the "upgrade" of the WS-15 is not seeking to further improve its kinematic performance but rather to give it the intended kinematic performance it was intended for -- yet even the WS-15 itself is arguably among the lesser important upgrades that J-20A is receiving from a pure thrust pov; instead the avionics, signature reduction, networking, weapons, power generation are the more significant benefits)

Similarly, for 4.5th generation aircraft relative to 4th generation aircraft, the primary advancements are less about bleeding edge kinematic performance, but about the same domains I listed above.

If you are in the same "generation" then pursuing advantages in those domains relative to the enemy in the same "generation" will accrue you better outcomes than focusing on low yield "WVR" gains.


Furthermore, holding advantages in those domains means you can defeat the enemy well before WVR, and even if they do get into WVR you can position yourself in a way to end the WVR engagement on your terms.