Shenyang next gen combat aircraft thread

[Gloire_bb]

Honestly though, if dogfighting is bad why build aircraft like J-20 and this one?

Dogfighting is inefficient.
As early as ww1, most kills were done in sudden attacks(point blank wvr of course), not in dogfighting; by ww2 it was absolutely standard.
Dogfight is a situation you(as attacker) end up in, not a situation you look for.

I don't think that's known to the public. Obviously both US and China run 5th gen on 5th gen exercises to work out this exact scenario but how that air combat will look like is not public knowledge.

IIRC, I saw a couple of sources saying that before recently, during redflag was more of an accident for a while, but with OPFOR F-35 number of them grew drastically.
Situations where sides just run into each other are quite frequent.

 

[Moonscape]

Honestly though, if dogfighting is bad why build aircraft like J-20 and this one?

Is it only because the characteristics that make them good at dogfighting are primarily meant to be used for supersonic manuevers during a BVR fight?

(Car analogy warning) Why do cars have antilock braking systems even though a good driver theoretically can avoid ever getting into a situation where ABS will be used? Because not all drivers are good and not all situations go as planned.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Same as what's being done now -- pursue the domains that bring with it the highest yields of increased A2A capability:
- signature reduction
- better sensors, better EW
- better networking
- better weapons
- better power generation

Think about it this way -- for 5th generation aircraft that are receiving upgrades like F-35 Block 4, the most important upgrades it is receiving are the aforementioned domains. They're not prioritizing improving the F-35's kinematic performance greatly, they're not giving it TVC or increasing its G rating further etc.
Even in the case of J-20A compared to J-20, it is receiving substantial improvements to those domains (and the "upgrade" of the WS-15 is not seeking to further improve its kinematic performance but rather to give it the intended kinematic performance it was intended for -- yet even the WS-15 itself is arguably among the lesser important upgrades that J-20A is receiving from a pure thrust pov; instead the avionics, signature reduction, networking, weapons, power generation are the more significant benefits)

Similarly, for 4.5th generation aircraft relative to 4th generation aircraft, the primary advancements are less about bleeding edge kinematic performance, but about the same domains I listed above.

If you are in the same "generation" then pursuing advantages in those domains relative to the enemy in the same "generation" will accrue you better outcomes than focusing on low yield "WVR" gains.


Furthermore, holding advantages in those domains means you can defeat the enemy well before WVR, and even if they do get into WVR you can position yourself in a way to end the WVR engagement on your terms.

so why does the F-35 advertise its DAS system, a WVR system that has little application in BVR, as a substantial advantage over the F-22?

 

[Blitzo]

so why does the F-35 advertise its DAS system, a WVR system that has little application in BVR, as a substantial advantage over the F-22?

Because it isn't a "WVR system", it is a spherical situational awareness enhancing capability in general, that is also important for MAWS, tracking friendlies, and even identifying very long distance threats (for example, over a decade ago they demonstrated the ability of DAS to track a ballistic missile launch 1300km away):

It also provides night time situational awareness outside of the aircraft.

DAS is a "WVR system" in the same way that eyeballs are a "WVR system".

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Because it isn't a "WVR system", it is a spherical situational awareness enhancing capability in general, that is also important for MAWS, tracking friendlies, and even identifying very long distance threats (for example, over a decade ago they demonstrated the ability of DAS to track a ballistic missile launch 1300km away):

It also provides night time situational awareness outside of the aircraft.

DAS is a "WVR system" in the same way that eyeballs are a "WVR system".

I must point out that the Falcon-9 launch was not observed at 1300 km distant. The launch occurred within the line of sight, as shown on the video you watched. IR is a line of sight technique. Further proof that the launch did not occur at 1300 km distant: the elevation at which the horizon is at 1300 km away is 130 km, which is far over the maximum altitude of any aircraft.

Since the launch occurred within the line of sight horizon, 1300 km in this context is the estimated (not measured) distance to the 2nd stage burnout, which occurred at high altitude. And that range is not well defined by IR information alone. Actual range is not possible to measure with the DAS, since IR cannot provide ranging information. Also, the burnout rocket engine is resolved as a single pixel, making target identification impossible at that distance anyhow.

Let's look at what we can see with our eyeballs, since you mentioned it.

That's Falcon 9 stage separation viewed from the ground with a shit camera that approximates our eyes. Occurs at ~80 km.

I would indeed consider eyeballs as "WVR sensors". Its in the name. If you can't see it with your eyeballs its not WVR. It is literally visual range.

 

[Blitzo]

I must point out that the Falcon-9 launch was not observed at 1300 km distant. The launch occurred within the line of sight, as shown on the video you watched. IR is a line of sight technique. Further proof that the launch did not occur at 1300 km distant: the elevation at which the horizon is at 1300 km away is 130 km, which is far over the maximum altitude of any aircraft.

Since the launch occurred within the line of sight horizon, 1300 km in this context is the estimated (not measured) distance to the 2nd stage burnout, which occurred at high altitude. And that range is not well defined by IR information alone. Actual range is not possible to measure with the DAS, since IR cannot provide ranging information. Also, the burnout rocket engine is resolved as a single pixel, making target identification impossible at that distance anyhow.

Let's look at what we can see with our eyeballs, since you mentioned it.

That's Falcon 9 stage separation viewed from the ground with a shit camera that approximates our eyes. Occurs at ~80 km.

I would indeed consider eyeballs as "WVR sensors". Its in the name. If you can't see it with your eyeballs its not WVR. It is literally visual range.

Nowhere in my post did I say that the launch of the ballistic missile involved tracking it from ground launch. The video is quite self explanatory and describe tracking it after the 1st stage was already lit and the missile was well into the air.
My point was to demonstrate that the range of DAS is one which is well beyond that of what is considered "WVR" in terms of air combat distances, as part of my overall point that DAS is not a "WVR system" but rather a general high end situational awareness, tracking and MAWS system.


If you consider eyeballs as "WVR sensors" then I suppose there's nothing more to discuss in that matter.


But none of what you've written has actually done anything to counter the points I made in #382.
WVR air combat is low yield, and developmental work and upgrades and high yield pursuits are made in other domains emphasizing engagements at increasingly long distances.

I strongly recommend dispensing with the idea that WVR combat is useful, it would probably help with approaching and making sense of the kind of air combat systems and concepts that are emerging in the world, including from the PLA.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Since when was the J-20 considered a dogfighter? It doesnt even have a gun. Only 5th gens that can dominate a dogfight are SU-57 and F-22.

It does have space for a gun. At one of the Zhuhai Airshows a few years back one of the guys that works on the J-20 said they just don’t find it necessary just yet. If it’s needed they’ll just install the gun.

 

[Biscuits]

Since when was the J-20 considered a dogfighter? It doesnt even have a gun. Only 5th gens that can dominate a dogfight are SU-57 and F-22.

You don't dogfight with a gun, a gun is for strafing ground targets or very marginally maybe for anti drone

It is considered a dogfighter because of high AoA and supermanueverability pretty much. Best dogfighter = lock on first with high off boresight missiles

 

[donnnage99]

can you help me understand why DAS is related to agility or how it improves BVR combat at the cost of WVR combat? It is a WVR IR sensor system that allows for 360 degree coverage, basically an electronic version of a bubble canopy that extends to the bottom of the aircraft. It doesn't seem to reduce the maneuverability of the aircraft, it specifically enhances WVR capabilities, and is not used for BVR combat.

Consider the golden compromise every experienced pilot knows - tighter the turn, greater the energy loss (slowing down). In fact, this is one of the reasons how red team f-15 pilots were able to score kill on young inexperienced f-22 pilots. They baited the f-22 to make very tight turn with its thrust vectoring, which cause the f-22 to slow down (physics) and became a sitting duck for a shot from another f-15.

The f-35 solves this by using DAS to cue the missile. With spherical coverage the f-35 can shoot at and from any angle and guide the missile while the f-35 dash away from the fight, maintaining full energy advantage.

Also, f-35 can provide range through DAS. DAS can triangulate to provide a tracking solution, whether by using it in conjunction with the EODAS or overlapping of the each DAS aperture coverage zones, or utilize the sensor fusion capability that blend in additional information from other onboard systems such as its RWR, or even other f-35 to provide a comprehensive image enough for tracking and weapon guide. And yes, its RWR can also provide a tracking solution too, though not at its max range. Its RWR actually blends information with the radar's SAR to provide elevation rather than having dedicated antennas for elevation geolocation such as on the f-22.

 

[Deino]

As I said, CGs, sketches or drawings of the SAC design are rare so far ... yesterday the great animation by @xmszeon and today I found this on FB.

(via @隨心所欲)