Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Blitzo

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That's a ... big statement. It needs explanation.
For example, any of mentioned advantages over Su-57 aren't obvious (maybe except for stealth, but this one is by far the trickiest to measure);
KF-21 and especially Su-75 - at best aren't obvious, since neither has even flown yet.
Same is true to large degree even for Eurocanards in their late 2020s form - while stealth is probably given, SA and Networking aren't.
At the very least we know that Rafale F.4 doesn't exactly struggle to find export customers even against the F-35.

Su-57 is already in service.
FC-31 first flew in 2012, and it is still most certainly not.

If the metrics you quoted of him are contesting are situational awareness, networking, and VLO, between an "export-ready FC-31" (which would probably be an export variant of a land based J-XY/J-35 variant), versus Su-57, I don't think that is an unreasonable statement.

I suppose it depends on what one's opinions about the respective sensor suite, networking, and VLO industry and capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry are versus that of Russia.
 

Gloire_bb

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If the metrics you quoted of him are contesting are situational awareness, networking, and VLO, between an "export-ready FC-31" (which would probably be an export variant of a land based J-XY/J-35 variant), versus Su-57, I don't think that is an unreasonable statement.

I suppose it depends on what one's opinions about the respective sensor suite, networking, and VLO industry and capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry are versus that of Russia.
There is no reason to compare if all can come down to opinions about capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry versus that of Russia. Especially when expert opinion is weighted above everything else.
Said opinions differ from individual to individual, are rarely impartial (be it personal interest or available sources - doesn't matter). We here often don't exactly like opinions on Chinese aerospace from other experts.
Thus, for the purposes of being impartial, let's just go by what is actually known.

FC-31(J-XY).
The program was initiated in 2000s(SAC), apparently privately at first. First flight 2012. Current status: in testing, with 1 closely related aircraft also in testing. Overall 3/4 aircraft, with 1 being barely representative of the actual aircraft.
Networking: stated as yes; no further data.
Radar: (1 - AESA). No data. (even less, actually, see below)
DAS/EOTS-like optical suite: DAS-like system assumed (EOTS as of yet only on J-XY).
RWR&etc: assumed (no data).
Sensor Fusion&System Integration: declared.

Strictly speaking, it is below "no data" - because as of 2022, we have even less right to assume things than a year ago. For instance, we don't know if FC-31/J-31 will follow the new J-XY nose unit (with a significantly larger radome and EOTS sensor), or they won't, and they will be kept separate. We don't know with which engine either of those fighters will even go into production. And so on.

Su-57:
The program was initiated around 2000, first flight 2010, entry into service - 2020. Funded by state. Current status: in production, development of at least two further known variants. <20 produced.
Networking: stated as yes, visible conformal datalink antennas are present. Bandwith, level of exchange etc. - unknown.
S/A:
Radar: known(5 AESA arrays, incl. 3 X- and 2 L-band).
DAS/EOTS-like optical suite: known(EOTS&SAIRST/MAWS&DIRCM);
RWR&etc: known.
Sensor Fusion&SYstem integration: declared, with more or less known architecture.

And don't even get me started on stealth. If every mr. Pyke really had an RCS-measurement apparatus in his eyeball, kaher-313 would've been a real aircraft and not the joke it actually was.

Conclusion: stating that FC-31 S/A, Datalinking, or stealth is superior from currently known facts is difficult.
Especially S/A - since, per known facts, su-57 currently spots the single most comprehensive fighter sensor suite in existence.
 
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Blitzo

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At this point there is no reason for experts to exist if all can come down to, quote, "opinions about capabilities of the Chinese aerospace industry versus that of Russia".
Especially when said opinions differ, and the very same experts don't exactly like opinions on Chinese aerospace from other experts.
Thus, for the purposes of being impartial, let's just throw those into the trash bin, and go by what is actually known.

FC-31(J-XY).
The program was initiated in 2000s(SAC), apparently privately at first. First flight 2012. Current status: in testing, with 1 closely related aircraft also in testing. Overall 3/4 aircraft, with 1 being barely representative of the actual aircraft.
Networking: stated as yes; no further data.
Radar: (1 - AESA). No data. (even less, actually, see below)
DAS/EOTS-like optical suite: DAS-like system assumed (EOTS as of yet only on J-XY).
RWR&etc: assumed (no data).
Sensor Fusion&System Integration: declared.

Strictly speaking, it is below "no data" - because as of 2022, we have even less right to assume things than a year ago. For instance, we don't know if FC-31/J-31 will follow the new J-XY nose unit (with a significantly larger radome and EOTS sensor), or they won't, and they will be kept separate. We don't know with which engine either of those fighters will even go into production. And so on.

Su-57:
The program was initiated around 2000, first flight 2010, entry into service - 2020. Funded by state. Current status: in production, development of at least two further known variants. <20 produced.
Networking: stated as yes, visible conformal datalink antennas are present. Bandwith, level of exchange etc. - unknown.
S/A:
Radar: known(5 AESA arrays, incl. 3 X- and 2 L-band).
DAS/EOTS-like optical suite: known(EOTS&SAIRST);
RWR&etc: known.
Sensor Fusion&SYstem integration: declared, with more or less known architecture.

And don't even get me started on stealth. If every mr. Pyke really had an RCS-measurement apparatus in his eyeball, kaher-313 would've been a real aircraft and not the joke it actually was.

Conclusion: stating that FC-31 S/A, Datalinking, or stealth is superior from currently known facts is difficult.
Especially S/A - since, per known facts, su-57 currently spots the single most comprehensive fighter sensor suite in existence.

I think this entire discussion is difficult to make on the basis that there is no agreement as to what an "export-ready FC-31" would look like.

For the record, my overriding assumption (including over the last couple of years when the idea of a proper "export-ready FC-31" began to be a viable prospect what with the PLA's commitment to both J-XY/35 and a land based variant of J-XY/35), is that any "export-ready FC-31" would be essentially the same aircraft as a land based variant of J-XY/35 that the PLAAF will induct, but perhaps with some export variant subsystems...

.... and that the land based variant of J-XY/35 for the PLAAF is basically the same aircraft as the baseline carrier based J-XY/35 that the PLANAF has committed to, except for of course, deletion of the various carrier related subsystems (reinforced landing gear, nosegear, folding wings, tailhook, etc).


.... all of which is a long way of saying, this comparison of the sensors, networking and VLO capabilities of an "export-ready FC-31" versus Su-57, from my position, is better described as a "J-XY/35-approximation" versus Su-57.
 

Gloire_bb

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.... all of which is a long way of saying, this comparison of the sensors, networking and VLO capabilities of an "export-ready FC-31" versus Su-57, from my position, is better described as a "J-XY/35-approximation" versus Su-57.
Understood. But I'd like to see some confirmation that FC-31"NG" will be J-XY(land) first. Hopefully, the promotion office will be able to solve that.

p.s. FC-31v2 was cute, too!
 
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Blitzo

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Understood. But, frankly speaking, I'd like to see some confirmation that FC-31"NG" will be J-XY(land) first, and not the aircraft we saw for years...

Tbh, I think your assessment of FC-31 on the last page was flawed to begin with, because it looked at the aircraft as they were simply based on the two FC-31 airframes that had flown and projecting that the degree of sophistication, systems integration, and flight testing of those two FC-31 airframes as being representative for what a true "export-ready FC-31" would look like.

I mean, to the best of our knowledge, we don't even know if the two FC-31 airframes even have any sort of mission equipment/sensors/avionics installed or tested in them, and as you said, they only built and flew two airframes over a number of years -- but this is all by design because those two airframes are essentially technology demonstrator airframes, which are "associated" with the "FC-31 export program" but they are not representative prototypes for the "FC-31 export program" itself, because the "FC-31 export program" has not even really begun because no one had shown any interest in it yet (due to a variety of understandable reasons).

Meaning trying to extrapolate anything about any sort of "export-ready FC-31" from the course, history of the two FC-31 technology demonstrators IMO is misleading at best.
 

tphuang

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Not sure that checks out!
No strings attached on the usage of the aircraft. There should be negotiation for political benefits on the export of the aircraft and also who can have access to the aircraft. It would be silly for China not to put conditions in like "do not allow F-35 users have a good look at this"

That's a ... big statement. It needs explanation.
For example, any of mentioned advantages over Su-57 aren't obvious (maybe except for stealth, but this one is by far the trickiest to measure);
KF-21 and especially Su-75 - at best aren't obvious, since neither has even flown yet.
Same is true to large degree even for Eurocanards in their late 2020s form - while stealth is probably given, SA and Networking aren't.
At the very least we know that Rafale F.4 doesn't exactly struggle to find export customers even against the F-35.

Su-57 is already in service.
FC-31 first flew in 2012, and it is still most certainly not.
It's not very difficult to look at su-57 and see an aircraft that's basically something a little better than Silent Eagle in stealth. Stealth is far and away the most important differentiator in fighter jet now. The production quality is not what you would expect for a 5th gen aircraft. It also doesn't look like the Russians have put much effort into making it achieve LO. They are also still having trouble mass producing AESA radar. The general Russian avionics is at least a generation behind China, if not more. Just to give you an idea of what China's defense industry think of Russia in this aspect. A quick comparison between J-16 and Su-35 avionics would show the gap between the 2 countries back in 2015.

Therefore, I don't see Su-57 having network centric capability of J-20 or fc31. Keep in mind that fc31 would have designed internal layout very recently whereas su57 would have done so back in late 2000s. There is a pretty wide gap between what Russia knew back then vs what china knows now in terms of how to design modern avionics architecture that maximizes situation awareness and keeping lo profile. Without stealth or modern situation awareness, It would be hard for me to recognize Su-57 as a 5th gen aircraft. Fc31 would have both. To me, it would have worse stealth and production quality than f35, but would be as good or better than j20 in those area. In situation awareness, it would probably be just a little worse than j20 two seater.

Su-75 imo will never go into production. KF-21 probably will go into production, but it currently still does not use internal weapon bay. How can I call it 5th generation? Indonesia has been so confident about that project that they just sent $20 billion on F-15s and Rafale rather putting more money into the project.

3 production Su-57s have been produced thus far. I don't see how anyone can say that qualifies as "in service". At this point, I anticipate them taking until 2025 to reach 15 to 20 production aircraft. Imo, it won't take fc31 or j35 much longer than that to get to 15 to 20 production aircraft. I'm guessing first production FC-31/J-35 to come out in 2024 and 15 to 20 by 2026/2027. At this point, china has shown it can mass produce 5th gen aircraft with the j20 project. Russia will have to prove it can do so.

China has been reluctant to promote fc31 everywhere. It needs to start doing that soon or else it will not be part of any competition.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
It's not very difficult to look at su-57 and see an aircraft that's basically something a little better than Silent Eagle in stealth.
It's difficult.
If it wouldn't be - everyone and their mother would be making true all-aspect jets - by gathering knowledgeable people from forums, twitter, and youtube comment sections- instead of whole research institutes under the Russian Academy of Sciences. Yet this is just not the case.
Or, to be exact, it was the case with Qaher-313, but the result wasn't terribly impressive.

We can assume the level they aimed at - by, for example, looking at how su-57 went for rounded EOTS&DIRCM domes instead of angular ones, or lack of toothing - i.e. measures that only have serious effect when return from everything else was already dealt with. We can assume that it isn't as high, but most certainly high enough to be tactically significant(otherwise - why bother?).
But saying more without at least a very good model is ... optimistic*.
Same is true for datalinks/data fusion and so on(but those are even harder to quantify, for obvious reasons).
The production quality of actual serial Su-57s changed
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.

Finally, with all those details in mind, Su-57 has true stealth geometry, and was designed with a signature(s) requirement from day 1. Comparing it with hotspot treatment (F/A-18E, Eurocanards), or especially adjusting already existing airframe like F-15SE is ... disingenuous.

Thus, you're harsher on it than it deserves. All basic bits of information point to it being a competitive plane.

*We have @Stealthflanker here, who actually does those models, btw.

On the other hand - we have little to nothing on which levels FC-31 designers could have aimed at. It doesn't exactly take much to draw a basic stealthy airframe - the problem is the details. And on details...
We don't even know what the final result will look like. Things like RAM usage, edge treatment et cetera - on an (originally) self-funded(1), export(2) platform, probably aimed at being affordable(3), created by a designer different from CAC(4)* - are a complete enigma. As mentioned in my exchange with Blitzo before - while we can criticize Russian EOTS balls - we don't even know if the actual FC-31 will use one, and how it will look. And so on.
*which is crucial, remembering the American A-12 debacle. But A-12 was at least designed for American use first and foremost.

Assuming that J-20A design had much higher(but how much?) goals for signature(s) is reasonable. Assuming the same for FC-31 - isn't.
Just to give you an idea of what China's defense industry think of Russia in this aspect.
虽然中文的确不是我的母语,我听过中方的意见。:) But...
Per Piotr Butowski, Russian MIC has the exact same opinion of the Chinese defense industry, but in reverse; we actually had this discussion on sinodefense a couple of years ago.
While I personally find his estimates on this particular subject doubtful - there is little reason to doubt that he actually has sources in Russia, and he is competent to write on what they think. Sources which few actual Russian experts may hope to match.
Thus, for simplicity's sake (and to try to avoid biases), I simply prefer avoiding "expert modifiers". Unless definitely proven - it's safer to assume both as equal. That doesn't mean they are - but, as with stealth, it is impossible to quantify.

Keep in mind that fc31 would have designed internal layout very recently whereas su57 would have done so back in late 2000s.
The first FC-31 demonstrator flew back in 2012 - and the demonstrator, as different as it may be, needs to demonstrate something for the final aircraft. The difference with both T-50 and J-20 isn't big.
Thus it is a safe bet that its airframe design isn't all that much younger than either of those two. Yes, a more production-representative article flew only a few years later - but the same is also true for the other two aircraft.

Finally, the establishment of a promotion office may be a sign that SAC now thinks they actually have something to market - i.e. FC-31 is close enough to a final form to sell it. It will place the whole timeline of the project even closer to Su-57 and J-20. Yes, a couple of years later - but it is younger, and had to make do with a much smaller fleet of test planes in the first place.
 

InfamousMeow

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's difficult.
If it wouldn't be - everyone and their mother would be making true all-aspect jets - by gathering knowledgeable people from forums, twitter, and youtube comment sections- instead of whole research institutes under the Russian Academy of Sciences. Yet this is just not the case.
Or, to be exact, it was the case with Qaher-313, but the result wasn't terribly impressive.

We can assume the level they aimed at - by, for example, looking at how su-57 went for rounded EOTS&DIRCM domes instead of angular ones, or lack of toothing - i.e. measures that only have serious effect when return from everything else was already dealt with. We can assume that it isn't as high, but most certainly high enough to be tactically significant(otherwise - why bother?).
But saying more without at least a very good model is ... optimistic*.
Same is true for datalinks/data fusion and so on(but those are even harder to quantify, for obvious reasons).
The production quality of actual serial Su-57s changed
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.

Finally, with all those details in mind, Su-57 has true stealth geometry, and was designed with a signature(s) requirement from day 1. Comparing it with hotspot treatment (F/A-18E, Eurocanards), or especially adjusting already existing airframe like F-15SE is ... disingenuous.

Thus, you're harsher on it than it deserves. All basic bits of information point to it being a competitive plane.

*We have @Stealthflanker here, who actually does those models, btw.

On the other hand - we have little to nothing on which levels FC-31 designers could have aimed at. It doesn't exactly take much to draw a basic stealthy airframe - the problem is the details. And on details...
We don't even know what the final result will look like. Things like RAM usage, edge treatment et cetera - on an (originally) self-funded(1), export(2) platform, probably aimed at being affordable(3), created by a designer different from CAC(4)* - are a complete enigma. As mentioned in my exchange with Blitzo before - while we can criticize Russian EOTS balls - we don't even know if the actual FC-31 will use one, and how it will look. And so on.
*which is crucial, remembering the American A-12 debacle. But A-12 was at least designed for American use first and foremost.

Assuming that J-20A design had much higher(but how much?) goals for signature(s) is reasonable. Assuming the same for FC-31 - isn't.

虽然中文的确不是我的母语,我听过中方的意见。:) But...
Per Piotr Butowski, Russian MIC has the exact same opinion of the Chinese defense industry, but in reverse; we actually had this discussion on sinodefense a couple of years ago.
While I personally find his estimates on this particular subject doubtful - there is little reason to doubt that he actually has sources in Russia, and he is competent to write on what they think. Sources which few actual Russian experts may hope to match.
Thus, for simplicity's sake (and to try to avoid biases), I simply prefer avoiding "expert modifiers". Unless definitely proven - it's safer to assume both as equal. That doesn't mean they are - but, as with stealth, it is impossible to quantify.


The first FC-31 demonstrator flew back in 2012 - and the demonstrator, as different as it may be, needs to demonstrate something for the final aircraft. The difference with both T-50 and J-20 isn't big.
Thus it is a safe bet that its airframe design isn't all that much younger than either of those two. Yes, a more production-representative article flew only a few years later - but the same is also true for the other two aircraft.

Finally, the establishment of a promotion office may be a sign that SAC now thinks they actually have something to market - i.e. FC-31 is close enough to a final form to sell it. It will place the whole timeline of the project even closer to Su-57 and J-20. Yes, a couple of years later - but it is younger, and had to make do with a much smaller fleet of test planes in the first place.

As far as I can search on the internet, there are a few claims of Su-57's RCS. (1) The claim that Russian official media said the RCS is 0.4 m^2. (2) The claim that the patent(?) indicates that Su-57 has RCS of 0.1-1 m^2. (3) Dr Karlo Kopp's paper's conclusion that "no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the T-50 prototype, which might preclude its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design with constrained angular coverage". The same conclusion was made for J-20. But he is hardly a good source for the information since he had some strong opinions of F-35 that makes me think he might not be that professional or unbiased when he writes paper.

I am just wondering if you think the RCS of 0.1-1 m^2 is a good estimates of the Su-57's capability. Because it is hard to imagine (for me) that J-31 or its derivatives would not aim for and achieve an RCS of lower than 0.1 m^2.

Also, just out of curiosity, do you think Russia will go for VLO or simply any significant further improvement in Su-57's RCS in future batches or is it just not the priority?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The general Russian avionics is at least a generation behind China, if not more. Just to give you an idea of what China's defense industry think of Russia in this aspect. A quick comparison between J-16 and Su-35 avionics would show the gap between the 2 countries back in 2015.
There is a massive leap between the Su-35 and Su-57 avionics. Sukhoi didn't even bother contacting the usual suppliers and designed the unit themselves. The processors it uses are almost two decades ahead of the older ones. More advanced than the ones in the initial units of the F-35.

Therefore, I don't see Su-57 having network centric capability of J-20 or fc31. Keep in mind that fc31 would have designed internal layout very recently whereas su57 would have done so back in late 2000s.
The FC-31 might have more advanced systems like HMD or single large piece display compared with initial versions of the Su-57. But Russia is also working on an advanced HMD for the Su-57. I would also not be surprised if the Su-57M came with a large display. Have you looked at the Su-75 cockpit? I expect the Su-57M to get a similar one.

Su-75 imo will never go into production.
The Su-75 has already been funded and most systems it is supposed to use are already available. Of course it will enter production.

3 production Su-57s have been produced thus far. I don't see how anyone can say that qualifies as "in service". At this point, I anticipate them taking until 2025 to reach 15 to 20 production aircraft. Imo, it won't take fc31 or j35 much longer than that to get to 15 to 20 production aircraft. I'm guessing first production FC-31/J-35 to come out in 2024 and 15 to 20 by 2026/2027. At this point, china has shown it can mass produce 5th gen aircraft with the j20 project. Russia will have to prove it can do so.
I consider the J-20 airframe design to be a generation behind the one of the Su-57. The airframe design of the F-22 and F-35 are even worse than either of those aircraft. Particularly the F-35. The Su-57 will only enter mass production after the Su-57M comes out. It remains to be seen which engines the production airplane for the PLA Navy based on the FC-31 will use. I have little doubt they can deliver on the other components. I hope they will have the 4th generation engines on it but we will see.

China has been reluctant to promote fc31 everywhere. It needs to start doing that soon or else it will not be part of any competition.
They have tried to sell it in several military expos but not having an actual aircraft or 1:1 mockup did not help I guess. China has been hard pressed to export aircraft in the first place. Even proven models let alone vaporware like the FC-31. Once it is in service with the PLA Navy maybe this will change but China will need to export to its traditional customers like Pakistan first I think.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
There is a massive leap between the Su-35 and Su-57 avionics. Sukhoi didn't even bother contacting the usual suppliers and designed the unit themselves. The processors it uses are almost two decades ahead of the older ones. More advanced than the ones in the initial units of the F-35.


The FC-31 might have more advanced systems like HMD or single large piece display compared with initial versions of the Su-57. But Russia is also working on an advanced HMD for the Su-57. I would also not be surprised if the Su-57M came with a large display. Have you looked at the Su-75 cockpit? I expect the Su-57M to get a similar one.


The Su-75 has already been funded and most systems it is supposed to use are already available. Of course it will enter production.


I consider the J-20 airframe design to be a generation behind the one of the Su-57. The airframe design of the F-22 and F-35 are even worse than either of those aircraft. Particularly the F-35. The Su-57 will only enter mass production after the Su-57M comes out. It remains to be seen which engines the production airplane for the PLA Navy based on the FC-31 will use. I have little doubt they can deliver on the other components. I hope they will have the 4th generation engines on it but we will see.


They have tried to sell it in several military expos but not having an actual aircraft or 1:1 mockup did not help I guess. China has been hard pressed to export aircraft in the first place. Even proven models let alone vaporware like the FC-31. Once it is in service with the PLA Navy maybe this will change but China will need to export to its traditional customers like Pakistan first I think.
Both the FC-31 and J-20 are from the same technical foundations under AVIC. Why would the FC-31 have inferior subsystems to the J-20 when they would basically share the same suppliers for all their systems.
 
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