Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I just don't like the F-60 design; aerodynamically, it looks as though even the J-10 could beat it, and on a stealth basis, it doesn't look particularly stealthy, given the flat delta wing configuration; no trapezoidal wings, no faceted wing rear; even the DSI looks dubious. The aircraft is also particularly small, suggesting that it has poor range and weapons load.

Yes, the aircraft is probably intended to be a cheap stealth fighter, but how much is traded off for cheap?

How can you say it looks like the J-10 can beat it aerodynamically...? We don't even have a proper picture of it yet, and the shots of the F-60 models were at strange angles so we cannot tell its real proportions.

As for stealth shaping -- how does the DSI look dubious, it looks fine to me (going by the model). I agree the trailing edge of the wings at this point do not seem to be the standard trapezoidal shape present on stealth fighters, but SAC are not that stupid to not align the edges on a plane together. (dependign on which picture you look at. For instance in this pic of F-60 you can clearly see the edges of the wing and stabilizers are aligned once you compensate for the latter's slight difference in elevation)

J-21_model1.jpg


The aircraft has been estimated to be in the size class of F-35, which is not that small at all.

I won't say this is meant to be a cheap stealth fighter, but certainly a more affordable, probably more multirole airplane than J-20's air superiority role. It should be able to carry a payload of four MRAAM size weapons at the minimum, and will obviously suffer a shorter range than say J-20, simply because of its size. But those are things every medium weight stealth fighter under development will suffer (F-35, ATD-X, KAI KFX, AMCA).

At this point I see nothing to majorly dislike about J-21/F-60, if it looks like what the model shows. It's basically a twin engined F-35. It gives opportunity to be modified for carrier operations too, given its configuration (say compared to J-20), and the two engines will definitely be a benefit in that regard.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Like I said, if they REALLY want it to, they can do it, transport the machinery and personnel to the destination location, and have them work on reattach the wings.

I have nothing against them doing it the way they are doing it, but I also believe the way they are making no secret to hide it is part of the plan.

Actually no, you can't just do that. if you know how anal 6-sigma engineering standards are. each sensor and its control wire needs to be calibrated -> you do not just attach it. meaning, you need a specialized lab/equipment/chamber; those of which needs to be calibrated themselves with standard tests etc.

Long story short, unless you are prepared to relocate a test lab, recalibrate all the equipment... just don't take that thing apart.

I will give you an example, in the building industry we do around 3-sigmas, my building element - lets say window - test itself will take 2 days to complete, to calibrate the test chamber, the sensors and equipment... 2-4 weeks; to build a testing facility, 4-6 months.

With 10+ KM of wiring in a modern aircraft, god knows how many sensors and actuators, and 6-sigma requirements... all i can say is that it will take a very long time to reach the reassemble the aircraft.
 

stardave

Junior Member
Actually no, you can't just do that. if you know how anal 6-sigma engineering standards are. each sensor and its control wire needs to be calibrated -> you do not just attach it. meaning, you need a specialized lab/equipment/chamber; those of which needs to be calibrated themselves with standard tests etc.

Long story short, unless you are prepared to relocate a test lab, recalibrate all the equipment... just don't take that thing apart.

I will give you an example, in the building industry we do around 3-sigmas, my building element - lets say window - test itself will take 2 days to complete, to calibrate the test chamber, the sensors and equipment... 2-4 weeks; to build a testing facility, 4-6 months.

With 10+ KM of wiring in a modern aircraft, god knows how many sensors and actuators, and 6-sigma requirements... all i can say is that it will take a very long time to reach the reassemble the aircraft.

Ok sure, then I guess there is absolutely nothing that China can do, besides drive this supposedly top secret aircraft in the middle of a dozen busy city and freeway and for everyone to take photograph of it.

I guess China absolute don't have any other way than to operate like this.
 

lcloo

Captain
Ok sure, then I guess there is absolutely nothing that China can do, besides drive this supposedly top secret aircraft in the middle of a dozen busy city and freeway and for everyone to take photograph of it.

I guess China absolute don't have any other way than to operate like this.

They can have other way, but like Letz said, it will take more than 4 t0 6 months time to built testing facility and calibrate it, which means 4 to 6 months months time delay, against less than one week time transporting it at slow speed on highway. Also China seen to be more open nowadays, they possibly want to show off their new toys without disclosing details.
 

MwRYum

Major
Like I said, if they REALLY want it to, they can do it, transport the machinery and personnel to the destination location, and have them work on reattach the wings.

I have nothing against them doing it the way they are doing it, but I also believe the way they are making no secret to hide it is part of the plan.

That'd certainly incur extra man-hour costs and delays, plus other unknowns that'd compromise the results - if not just to the entire project - by introducing assembly-disassemble at off-site location.

As to the so-called "super secret", look SAC's design has been displayed on model before so the overall shape isn't secret anymore, then the rig has been wrapped pretty thoroughly like a "Duanwu zongzi" (for the Chinese amongst us, it's even more fitting because the Duanwu festival was only last Saturday), yes you can tell the overall outline but not much more than that.

Still, the SAC has yet introduce a flight-worthy sample / prototype, so let us all wait and see.
 

stardave

Junior Member
That'd certainly incur extra man-hour costs and delays, plus other unknowns that'd compromise the results - if not just to the entire project - by introducing assembly-disassemble at off-site location.

As to the so-called "super secret", look SAC's design has been displayed on model before so the overall shape isn't secret anymore, then the rig has been wrapped pretty thoroughly like a "Duanwu zongzi" (for the Chinese amongst us, it's even more fitting because the Duanwu festival was only last Saturday), yes you can tell the overall outline but not much more than that.

Still, the SAC has yet introduce a flight-worthy sample / prototype, so let us all wait and see.

So you agree with my original statement, that this is not really a "secret" secret, it does involves a bit of publicity stunt. Maybe they are trying to take the thunder off J-20 a little.

Again, I see no problem with doing this whatsoever, but it is what it is.
 

MwRYum

Major
So you agree with my original statement, that this is not really a "secret" secret, it does involves a bit of publicity stunt. Maybe they are trying to take the thunder off J-20 a little.

Again, I see no problem with doing this whatsoever, but it is what it is.

No, what seems to be a publicity stunt was no more than out of necessity...if only Chinese roads are as well lit and drivers are as law abiding as with the advanced nations, they could've done so at the dead of night with the least interference to the general public. Whatever you saw was nothing more than unintended fanfare.

I'd call it a publicity stunt when SAC have a flyable prototype out there flight testing.

Mind you, state enterprises such as SAC are largely immune to public opinions, nonetheless SAC has been loathed as "沈霍伊" "Shenkhoi" (a mesh-up word combining "Shenyang" and "Sukhoi") for its lack of innovations(just recycled iterations of Su-27 and crappy old J-8); whereas CAC have J-10, JF-17 and Project 817 to prove their trove of innovations. Still, for professions such as those of aviation industry, to garner points and other things from its rival you need more than a wind tunnel / stress-test sample, you need a flight-worthy prototype.
 

Inst

Captain
I doubt it's on par with the F-35; if you intend to create a plane that's actually worse than the F-35, you've succeeded. The fuselage is too thin to carry a reasonable amount of fuel, and I think that on a good day it would be able to carry 4 AAMs internally.

The F-35 has far more sophisticated airframe design, with bumps designed to increase its high-AOA performance. It is also a rather fat aircraft; this is slim to the effect that fuel and weapons load must be rather limited.

I would get the feeling the F-60, even with its stealth design, would have difficulty engaging a Rafale, and consequently must be extremely cheap to compensate.

The small size also limits the size of the radar, meaning it would have greater difficulty detecting enemy aircraft at BVR ranges, especially under jamming conditions, and once it's stuck in WVR, it would stand a high risk of being destroyed.

===

This is the kind of garbage you want to dump on Mugabe or other African leaders who want "stealth" aircraft without being willing to pay for it properly.
 
Last edited:

paintgun

Senior Member
I doubt it's on par with the F-35; if you intend to create a plane that's actually worse than the F-35, you've succeeded. The fuselage is too thin to carry a reasonable amount of fuel, and I think that on a good day it would be able to carry 4 AAMs internally.

The F-35 has far more sophisticated airframe design, with bumps designed to increase its high-AOA performance. It is also a rather fat aircraft; this is slim to the effect that fuel and weapons load must be rather limited.

I would get the feeling the F-60, even with its stealth design, would have difficulty engaging a Rafale, and consequently must be extremely cheap to compensate.

The small size also limits the size of the radar, meaning it would have greater difficulty detecting enemy aircraft at BVR ranges, especially under jamming conditions, and once it's stuck in WVR, it would stand a high risk of being destroyed.

===

This is the kind of garbage you want to dump on Mugabe or other African leaders who want "stealth" aircraft without being willing to pay for it properly.

you are being too harsh on SAC and this plane, how do you come up with this assertion is beyond me
the plane is not even fully unveiled

they call this plane the dumpling plane, ie a zhong zi
and yet you can judge how good it will taste just by looking at how it is wrapped, without even opening or tasting it

I'd call it a publicity stunt when SAC have a flyable prototype out there flight testing.

in my book this is a full blown publicity, just like the J-20

but it's a good one, i would hate to be a Western intelligence officer analyzing this, or their supervising officer :)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top