Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
- Thread starter RedSky
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It probably won't be able to supercruise nor have an AESA that large -- I'm just thinking of it as a twin engined F-35 (but hopefully far cheaper lol) at the moment.
Schumacher
Senior Member
When the next gen medium thrust engines are ready probably a couple of years behind WS15, I very much doubt it will not super-cruise.
Even if India's new rafale is in service today, would it be able to take on, let's say USAF minus the B-2 amd F-22s? F-15/F-16?
why?
because war is not a one on one dogfight match, it is a confrontation of system of systems.
as far as I can see IAF is sorely lacking in EW platforms and emphasis or technical depth in this area. compare against, let's say the chinese.
PHalcons, the corner piece of their air battle, is basically a known entity to the chinese. while they prob know very little of the bands and electronic signture of the chinese awacs and fighter radars.
clearly in the last 20 years chinese airforce has been askewing platform superiority in favor of EW superority.
escobar
Brigadier
i would rather think that IAF asked israel to modify the phalcons system so that PLAAF could not have superiority in EW.
1. as for Phalcon, Yes, IAF prob did asked for that.
but basic RF signal characteristics, signal processing, basic system architecture , will be very similar. and 14th Institute through their experience with Israeli's prob has much more visibility into Phalcon than vis-versa.
2. and IAF don't have any visibility into Chinese stuff because almost everything chinese do is in house.
the talent onChina's bench is much deeper.
think about it. worlds biggest producers of telecomm equipment are chinese. they design and build everything in down to the chips in house.
3. PLAAF and PLA in general has a much high commitment towards EW than IAF. more dedicated platforms. more resources on all levels.
even back in the deep dark ages of 80-90s defense cuts, PLA rather rig a old howizter with computers and turn into digital artillery rather than commit for any new equipment.
and who would you find beside USAF/USN that is spending that much money on dedicated airborne elint and jammers?
---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------
If SAC's Stealth fighter beats out CAC's proposal and goes into service as the standard PLAAF mid size fighter in 2020s. by that time IAF would only be receiving initial batch of Rafale and working out bugs. assume J-20 enters service at 2015-17 as they expected. rafale will have to face it first.
Its sprinkling of Rafale and T-50 (if Russians are ontrack, and they are willing to let IAF get their hands on any) on top of will be facing an airforce full of J-10 and J-11s with a top tier of J-20 and the 4th Gen Midsize fighter.
I really don't know why IAF commits to Rafale at this point, while its IN buys Mig-35. logistical night mare. no political grantees (France will not airlift equipment into India in time of crisis), very expensive, facing platform obsolescence with in 5 years.
total waste of money.
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
The IN choosing Mig29 was determined by their contractual obligations for getting a 'free' carrier from the Russians. But even if that was not the case, could Rafales take off with a cat?
As for the rest, well the reason India is doing what it is is because it has no other choice.
The very best India could make domestically is the LCA, which is only about as good as the JF17 is right now, and relies heavily on foreign parts and design expertise. By the time it enters service (if it enters service), the likes of the JF17 blk2 and J10B would also be entering service, and it will struggle against the JF17 blk2 and have no chance against the J10B.
The fact that India takes forever and a day to make an decisions also massively hinders themselves and produces some stupid looking decisions.
Signing for Rafales today as a counter to the PLAAF does seem positively short sighted, but bare in mind that when their MMRCA tender was first started, no-one outside of the PLAAF knew much about J20, even the J10B was but a myth back then. Thus, the MMRCA requirements were drawn up, it was primarily aimed at countering the PLAAF's J10 and J11 fleets. And if the Indians didn't take their sweet sweet time deciding, the first Rafales might have been delivered by now.
While that in itself may seem a little short-sighted to aim to only counter what the PLAAF has today instead of what they might have in the future, all you have to do is look at the ostrich-like denial sweeping western 'experts' when the J20 first appeared to see how much they underestimated the Chinese, and how much of a shock the J20 was.
When the Indians were drawing up the MMRCA requirements, they probably thought they were being overly generous in assuming that the PLAAF would have something equivalent to Rafale or Typhoon by the time the MMRCA were supposed to enter service. The hundred odd MMRCA would thus be equal to what the best the PLAAF could field, and the Indians would have the PAK-FA was a trump card.
It's pretty obvious that India is loathed to believe that China could be so far ahead of them now, that they are ever more determined to buy into any and all theories that belittle and downplay the J20. I would bet good money that much of the top brass of the IAF still think the J20 is just a tech demonstrator, and most if not all of them will point blank refuse to believe that the J20 could come close to the PAF-FA, so as far as they are concerned, they will still hold the upper hand in any post 2020 conflict. Hell, maybe they will even revise down their already ridiculous estimate for how long it will take India to knock China out of a two-front potential conflict involving a India-Pak-China threeway.
escobar
Brigadier
Yes you're right for that. Apart USAF/USN only PLA is spending so much money on dedicated airborne elint and jammers like the
high new series.
there are also a CAC's proposal for the mid size fighter?? i would think that they will be very busy on J-20 to make another proposal.
Mig-29 not Mig-35.
Any way they have no other choice but to buy rafale and Mig-29.
---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------
Are you serious?? I do not think they are so foolish. Fan maybe but IAF top brass?
you can not blame them for that.
Everybody want their 5th gen plane to be the best among the big three.
Hell, maybe they will even revise down their already ridiculous estimate for how long it will take India to knock China out of a two-front potential conflict involving a India-Pak-China threeway.
I do not recall hearing about their estimate to knock china and pak in a two-front potential conflict.
can you provide a link?
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you are right on Mig-35 part. anyways, the new Mig-29K has many of 35's technology rolled in, and is not the same as the -29K of 1980s.
CAC always has that proposal. essentially a single engine WS-15, stealth canard configuration not unlike a enlarged J-10/ smaller J-20.
The official competition hasn't began yet, SAC is trying to fund its own export midsized fighter which hopefully, by the time competition opens, can be seen as 1) mature technology / low risk solution, 2) more compatible with naval requirements so it will be a joint service buy. pretty obvious what they are doing.
CAC has something up its sleeves. it will roll 1) J-10A/B's success into it so it is seen as a continuation 2) roll J-20 technology into it so that it will be seen as complementary.
this competitions, will be like China's equivalent of JSF, more likely a dual service buy.
you can mark this post right here. so you will say that in 20 years, you are the first one who saw this on the internet.
---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------
They have a choice not to get Gorshkov, instead build or buy a bigger carrier that actually can launch rafale sized aircraft.
even if it buys super hornet and use it to fill gaps it would make more sense.
a bigger ship is just more steel. the upfront cost is marginal compare against the downside.
---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------
Let's count what IAF has or will have in future.
Su30MKI
Mig-29
Mirage-2000.
Mig-21
LCA
FPGA/T-50
Rafale.
Mig-27
Jaguar.
truely an assorted aircraft fleet.
most of the type's numbers don't exceed 150 most of them are around 50-100.
that's nuts.
MMRCA buy numbers only around 130. that's still too small to fill the midsized gap. assume LCA can fill some of the airdefense roles. and all other fighter retires, that's still 3 types, engine wise there is AL-31F; 117 (AL-41F1), M88, RD-33. yikes.
===
PLA is in process of retire all of J-7/J-8 fleet.
J-11/J-10 will be the high low mix.
after that
J-20/C-JSF will be the high low mix. (C-JSF: CHinese joint strike fighter. let's just call that for lack of a better name)
for fighter bomber it will be J-11BS/J-16 and JH-7 as high low mix.
That's very good and lean as far as for logistics goes.
even better there will be only two big family of engines in the same class (AL31F and variants ; WS-10 family) which both has dedicated facilities to support and manufacture in house. in the near future.
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Hmm I think a few guys at key forums would disagree with you
But in all seriousness, can you list a few ways (platforms?) in which PLAAF has a higher "commitment" to EW than IAF? Is it the Y-8 GX EW planes, JH-7/A with EW pods, slightly larger variety of AEWC platforms or what? (How do you even evaluate EW proficiency? Is it through the number of dedicated EW, ELINT platforms, variety and potency of radars and ESM, datalinking?)
Because IAF "legacy" fighters have gone under quite potent modernization programs to bring up their EW, ESM to modern standards (I can't recall them immediately but IAF fans proudly list the new foreign avionics installed in old mirages and Mig-29s). Has the PLAAF made similar strides to their own legacy fighters? (I assume they have, but the transparency of the two countries are obviously different).
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