Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
- Thread starter RedSky
- Start date
- Status
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Some very good questions.
I don't think there is any exact set of answers for why certain planes choose single engined designs while others opt for twin engined.
For the KFX and AMCA, well they are both being developed by nations with no established independent engine history, so it would be logical for them to opt for the less risky medium thrust engine, both to develop and buy, as you and paintgun have already pointed out.
In addition, it is almost certain that for both programmes, they will at the very least need foreign partners to help with the engine development, if not having to by the engine itself outright. There are far more suppliers of medium thrust engines than heavy thrust engines, so they have a better chance of actually getting the engine they need, and probably for a better price.
As for the Mig29, well, there is a very very hazy fragment of memory that the Russians demanded better reliability figures from their new fighters than was deemed possible with a single engined design. But it is entire possible that my memory is playing tricks on me on this one.
But in the USAF competition that produced the F16, both the YF16 and YF17 participated, and it was a very close run thing. The YF17 was later re-designed for naval ops and become the F18. One of the main reasons that it was chosen was because the USN preferred twin engines for redundancy.
But as I was writing the above, I think I have just realized why SAC has gone with a twin medium engined design over a single engined design - customers!
It has been public knowledge for a while that there is currently no PLAAF tender for a medium weight fifth gen. SAC is just shopping their design to see if anyone bites.
The fact that they are openly stating that they are developing this fighter for export means that the WS15 would almost be ruled out by default, as it would be very likely that the PLAAF would block the export of the WS15 outright. It would appear that SAC is unwilling to bet that the PLAAF will buy this, so they are hedging their bets just in case the PLAAF shows in interest in the J19.
Apart from foreign customers, the other likely buyer would be the PLANAF for their future carriers, and as with the F18, having twin engines would be more to the navy's tastes because of the added redundancy twin engines provide.
A very good question indeed.
---------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 AM ----------
But follwing that link it is now called J-21 !!
Probably to stay in keeping with PLAAF generational coding.
J-0X = second generation
J-1X = third generation
J-2x = fourth generation
If the SAC stealth was called J19, it would imply that it is only 3rd generation along with the J10 and J11, which would be a little unfair. But I have better things to do than go back and change all J19s into J21 in my last post, so SAC will just have to live with the implied insult.
On a slightly related note, it would be interesting to see if the PLAAF generational naming convention also holds true for attack aircraft.
So, would it go something like this?
JH-0X = first generation striker (equivalent to third generation fighter tech)
JH-1X = second generation striker (equivalent to fourth generation fighter tech)
The above are all Chinese generations obviously
Because with the way the SAC fifth (western argh! what a mess!) gen is shaping up, I guess it could just as easily be classed as a JH10 as a J21...
Last edited:
Hmm that makes sense, wrt blocking WS-15 for export, and developing a twin engined fighter for carriers. A J-15+J-21/J-19 combo would be similar to the USN's projected F-18E/F+F-35 combo, only J-21/19 would be twin engined.
Although I'm not sure what kind of market there is for a medium weight stealth fighter. Apart from pakistan I see no other potential customer, unless they're wanting to break into new markets.
And if J-21 is indeed twin engined as now reported it would seem WS-13 is a bit more further along than last reported (though the last report was indeed a while ago).
But it would be strange to me if SAC weren't promoting this plane, if it exists, to PLAAF even if they currently do not have a contract up for grabs.
But follwing that link it is now called J-21 !!
Yeah it's weird
On his message board huitong said the J-19 (now J-21??) model is "legit," as it was "confirmed" by a cjbdy admin... And he seems confident it's going to be for export.
----
Going back to the model, we all wrote it off as a student/amateurish thing when it emerged. But if the engines are indeed meant to be WS-13 sized, it would mean a plane similar in size to what KFX and AMCA are meant to be (and configuration too! Lol if J-21 does indeed fly later this year we can say they copied China
)I wonder if DSI will be the new trend for all new gen chinese fighters >_>
Actually if true it is the "concept" I proposed since some tome for any future PLAAF/PLANAF-fighter) and also the best way for SAC to stay in buisness.
A multi-role medium-size (maybe carrier-capable) type that supplements the heavier J-20 and as an alternative for the F-35 in export ... additionally to the JH-XX / JH-7B from Xian ! IMO the best solution.
Deino
A multi-role medium-size (maybe carrier-capable) type that supplements the heavier J-20 and as an alternative for the F-35 in export ... additionally to the JH-XX / JH-7B from Xian ! IMO the best solution.
Deino
escobar
Brigadier
I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but the leaking of info and pics of this new plane is similar to the build up we got before J-20 was released. (Blurry pics of metal models, conflicting reports on configuration/weight class, more continuous statement, full scale metal mock up completed, maiden flight pending)
I wonder if SAC will be more liberal with their allowance of photographers when taking pics of the new plane if it is indeed for export. Generate some hype both domestic and for potential foreign customers. I'm sure they noticed the massive positive attention CAC received and still are receiving over the well documented J-20 flight tests.
Actually if it is for export, I wonder if SAC are going to be bold enough to promote their aircraft at zhuhai this year?
Given the massive difference in secrecy from now to two years ago even, that may not be out the question if they're aiming for foreign interest. If they can get the thing to fly this early, years before KFX or AMCA, they might even get the "marketing initiative".
I wonder if SAC will be more liberal with their allowance of photographers when taking pics of the new plane if it is indeed for export. Generate some hype both domestic and for potential foreign customers. I'm sure they noticed the massive positive attention CAC received and still are receiving over the well documented J-20 flight tests.
Actually if it is for export, I wonder if SAC are going to be bold enough to promote their aircraft at zhuhai this year?
Given the massive difference in secrecy from now to two years ago even, that may not be out the question if they're aiming for foreign interest. If they can get the thing to fly this early, years before KFX or AMCA, they might even get the "marketing initiative".
I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but the leaking of info and pics of this new plane is similar to the build up we got before J-20 was released. (Blurry pics of metal models, conflicting reports on configuration/weight class, more continuous statement, full scale metal mock up completed, maiden flight pending)
I wonder if SAC will be more liberal with their allowance of photographers when taking pics of the new plane if it is indeed for export. Generate some hype both domestic and for potential foreign customers. I'm sure they noticed the massive positive attention CAC received and still are receiving over the well documented J-20 flight tests.
Actually if it is for export, I wonder if SAC are going to be bold enough to promote their aircraft at zhuhai this year?
Given the massive difference in secrecy from now to two years ago even, that may not be out the question if they're aiming for foreign interest. If they can get the thing to fly this early, years before KFX or AMCA, they might even get the "marketing initiative".
I wholeheatly agree with You; AMEN !
But just another consideration ... it was always said that we got so much more photos from the CAC since the Chengdu factory is located more or less "in-town" ... but if You look at GE-images on the SAC site it seems to be quite visible too !
So let's hope .... (but for me the next mayor event will be the Y-20 !!!)
Deino
I wonder if SAC will be more liberal with their allowance of photographers when taking pics of the new plane if it is indeed for export. Generate some hype both domestic and for potential foreign customers. I'm sure they noticed the massive positive attention CAC received and still are receiving over the well documented J-20 flight tests.
Actually if it is for export, I wonder if SAC are going to be bold enough to promote their aircraft at zhuhai this year?
Given the massive difference in secrecy from now to two years ago even, that may not be out the question if they're aiming for foreign interest. If they can get the thing to fly this early, years before KFX or AMCA, they might even get the "marketing initiative".
actually that's the point, i believe there are certain ranks in Chinese military aviation industry and also PLAAF who have been eager to make broader (proper) push into the world's fighter market
what if the AMCA is a hit? what if the KFX becomes a great success? we at least don't see timid moves coming from Korean marketing, there is very few players in this market, Americans are too greedy, Europeans are too expensive, and the Russians are limping on
and the market itself is big, the advantage is all on China to make such initiative, and it is only fitting they come full circle along with the civilian aerospace enterprise
another thing to note, that the timeline of the development of this 'F-60'/J-21 matches to the KF-X, only confirms the export oriented rumour
if it finally turns out to be a twin WS-13 class aircraft, it might as well be a separate project altogether (from scratch) from the original Shengyang J-XX project
^ This J-21 plane if it's real, would certainly have benefited from any work SAC may have done for their J-XX proposal.
And if it does fly later this year, it will be a good few years ahead of KFX and AMCA imo, and despite bad press with J-11B a few years back they're showing they can step up their game, with mass J-11B/BS production for the last two years.
I do hope this plane is real. It will be great to see the faces of western analysts accepting the idea that two new stealth planes flew within the space of two years.
If J-20 was a game changer in assessing chinese military developments, J-21 (if it's real and flies within a year or even two) will lead to even greater alarm bells.
And if it does fly later this year, it will be a good few years ahead of KFX and AMCA imo, and despite bad press with J-11B a few years back they're showing they can step up their game, with mass J-11B/BS production for the last two years.
I do hope this plane is real. It will be great to see the faces of western analysts accepting the idea that two new stealth planes flew within the space of two years.
If J-20 was a game changer in assessing chinese military developments, J-21 (if it's real and flies within a year or even two) will lead to even greater alarm bells.
escobar
Brigadier
lol the "western analyst" will say: it is a copy of F-22 and F-35, the WS-13 is a copy of a russian engine; so there is no need to worry.
But in the end they will talk about china being a threat.
- Status