Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Schumacher

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Its direct competitor would be the rumored JH-7B.

I doubt that. JH-7B is just modified from JH7A with little or no stealth. This SAC JXX is a totally new stealth multi-role design. There's a generational gap between these 2.
JH-7B will compete more directly with J16 although not much as one is used mostly by the navy and the latter by the air force.
 

escobar

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First evidence of the SAC 5th gen fighter?

The article mentioned that the landing gears for China's next generation multirole fighter, which will be used domestically and abroad, had been ready since November 2011.
in the article there are that
"重点型飞机是由中航工业主导研发,瞄准国际市场、兼顾国内需求的新一代多用途军用飞机" which say :
the aircraft is designed for the international market but could also suit domestic market needs.
 

Deino

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The top one shows the HN-2, and according to numerous articles it was developed from a crashed BGM-109 Tomahawk. The HN-2 is rumored to come in two variants, possibly explaining the differences in fuselage. It may also be the booster for initial takeoff.

Come on, the first one is a "Tomahawk" and the second one simply one of the numerous - please don't ask me whic - versions of the "Silkwormns"´, even the launcher is the same as shown in that image:

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And please don't tell me they can lauch a "Tomohawk-clone" from a HY-1/-2 launcher.

Sorry my friend, but a little bit of research and more of common-sence would help You to decide what's whisfull thinking, fan-boys-dreams and what's real. :(


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Thanks for the links but again and esp. regarding their reliability, credibility ....;)

Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online. HN missiles are a series of little known turbofan powered Chinese land attack cruise missile, which is based on the variants of the Russian Kh-SD/65.....

And as such both books are the same with the first one being the "older" Wiki-summary by another "publisher".

As such, nothing substantial.

Deino
 

Blitzo

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again, i think there will be no 5th gen single engined fighter aircraft before WS-15

a WS-10 class aircraft will step on the foot of J-10/B, and doubtfully can provide enough thrust

i wish we can see the bird to end these recurrent speculations

If there ever was a single engined 5th gen it's not impossible for it to be powered by a single WS-10 or Al-31, afterall J-20 was paired with two.
 

escobar

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huitong create a new section for the SAC 5th Gen fighter

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A scale-down model of J-19 was unveiled by the 601 Institute at the first International UAV Innovation Grand Prix held in Beijing in September 2011. It was first rumored in April 2011 that 601/SAC are developing a 4th generation medium multi-role stealth fighter as J-19 (or J-21?). The aircraft has a conventional design featuring twin engines and DSIs similar to American F-22 and F-35. The prototype could initially be powered by the 8.5t class WS-13 turbofan but later by the new 9.5t class "medium thrust" engine. A full-scale metal model may have been built in early 2011. The first prototype has been under construction since late 2011. First flight was projected to be in September 2012. J-19 is expected to be promoted at the international market as well as a low-cost alternative to American F-35.
 
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Blitzo

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If this is true it'll basically be a chinese MCA or KFX -- which is not a bad way to go. I've always thought that if China was to go for a medium weight stealth fighter twin engined would be the way to go.

Although I'm not sure if the model featured is J-19 (I very much doubt it), and is a model probably from students instead (The random "F-60" title on the model is telling).

I suppose we'll see whether this thing is real later this year then.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
If this is true it'll basically be a chinese MCA or KFX -- which is not a bad way to go. I've always thought that if China was to go for a medium weight stealth fighter twin engined would be the way to go.

Although I'm not sure if the model featured is J-19 (I very much doubt it), and is a model probably from students instead (The random "F-60" title on the model is telling).

I suppose we'll see whether this thing is real later this year then.

it being a nice model and grabbed alot attention was one thing

the other thing why it intrigued many people is probably the 'that it's not just a model after all' feeling
people haven't been saying it's 'just a model' and have inclined to say that there is probably more to it, or maybe an aftermath of the J-20 experience :p

proper wings and control surfaces, no fancy all moving vertical stabs, cockpit-plane ratio, it must have been a CAD designed model before they make this one

all certainly within knowledge and expertise of college students, or a group of college students working with/under a team of experts from SAC, who knows, Huitong seems to think it's something more
 

plawolf

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I am a little disappointed if this is true.

I still feel that using a single, large thrust engine would be a better solution to using two medium thrust ones.

Some back of the envelope calculations.

Firstly, the 8.5t and 9.5t figures are full afterburner thrust, which isn't all that useful.

Since the WS13 is pretty much the same as an RD93 in terms of thrust, I am just going to use RD93 figures for it as there are no reliable WS13 figures around that I know of.

Each RD93 weight 1.15t and produce 5t of thrust. So taking we have combined weight of 2.3t and 10t thrust.

I will use AL31FN figures with the WS10A, since again I am not 100% that the figures are reliable for it, so that is 1.54t weight and 7.8t dry thrust.

In terms of net thrust, a WS13 powered J19 will have 2.2t more net thrust compared to a WS10A powered J19.

But bare in mind that two WS13 is 0.75t heavier than a single WS10A. There will also be additional structural weight from having two medium engines compared to a single large one, but since I cannot find a reasonable estimate for how much this could be, and to make the calculations easier, I am going to assume that the two planes will have exactly the same weight excluding the engines (and I am going to say 8t excluding engines just for illustration purposes), which is very generous for the WS13 powered J19.

So, the WS13 powered J19 (which I shall be referring as the J19A for simplicity sake) will weight 10.3t and have 10t dry thrust to give a dry T/W ratio of 0.97.

The WS10A powered J19 (referred to as J19B from here on) will have a weight of 9.54t and 7.8t thrust to give a T/W ratio of 0.83.

However, WS13 and WS10A will only be an interim solution, and the full spec J19 will have either the next gen medium thrust engines (and I will call them WS16 for illustration sake) or the WS15.

Now, assuming a similar wet to dry thrust ratio between the WS13 and WS16 would yield a dry thrust of 5.9t for a 9.5t full afterburning engine. Assuming a similar (dry) T/W ratio as that for the WS15 (which I will use F119 figures to proxy since that is the closest estimate we have for the WS15, Bill Sweetman give an estimate of 26000lb/11.79t dry thrust for the F119, and the F119 weighs 1.77t) of 6.66, gives an engine that weighs 0.89t each.

So assuming everything else is constant, with the WS16 weighing 0.89t and producing 5.9t of thrust, the J19C will have a T/W ratio of 11.8t/9.78t=1.21.

A WS15 powered J19D will have a T/W ration of 11.79/9.77=1.21

Bare in mind that the empty weight net of engines of a single engined J19 is going to be considerably less than that of a twin engined version, and you can see that the J19D is almost certain to have a better T/W ratio than a J19C.

In addition, the J19D would enjoy all the additional advantages of having a single large engine compared to two medium ones like lower fuel consumption and operational costs; more internal room for fuel, weapons bays and avionics; which together translates into greater payload and range; additional logistical savings from sharing the same engine as the J20 and so on. All that with a better T/W ratio to boot, and with at the very least the same drag ratio, but probably better, it will translates into a more agile aircraft to boot.
 
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Blitzo

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A well reasoned argument put forward as always, plawolf.

However it seems to me other recent stealthy proposals from other countries seem to feature two medium thrust engines for a medium weight fighter -- KFX and AMCA for instance. Now it's questionable wrt the stages of development they are at, but there must be some reason they are twin engined instead of single. Is it because they are unable to develop or procure a single large turbofan to power their planes or is it because there are advantages of twin engines?

There's redundancy, for one of course. But what else? The question can be applied to with existing planes like typhoon, rafale or even mig-29 vs the likes of F-16 and J-10 for example. There must be some benefit to having twin engines otherwise there wouldn't be so many aircraft which would adopt such a configuration.

But having an aircraft which adopts twin WS-13 or the future medium thrust engine could be good for future JF-17 sales (though it is from CAC lol), in that it commits PLAAF to an engine which will be exported and lowers the overall cost, and whatever upgrades the PLAAF develop for their own medium thrust engines could be transferred to export too.

Also, using a different engine for a medium weight fighter may mean more difficult logistics, but if WS-15 experiences issues it will mean it will not suffer a common bottleneck.

I wonder if F-35 didn't have the VSTOL requirement, would it have turned out a better plane as a twin engined fighter.
 
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paintgun

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Now it's questionable wrt the stages of development they are at, but there must be some reason they are twin engined instead of single. Is it because they are unable to develop or procure a single large turbofan to power their planes or is it because there are advantages of twin engines?

There's redundancy, for one of course. But what else? The question can be applied to with existing planes like typhoon, rafale or even mig-29 vs the likes of F-16 and J-10 for example. There must be some benefit to having twin engines otherwise there wouldn't be so many aircraft which would adopt such a configuration.

simply a matter of available engine types versus aircraft weight

to secure an engine within the calibre of an F135 is nigh impossible task, no one has such engine except the US
to base your aircraft development on yet to be developed engine is a double down on losing hands, and there is no guarantee the single engine route will not end up like the F-35, problematic, short of promises and schedule, expensive

twin engined F-35? you are looking at it Blitzo, the F-60 :p
 
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