Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator
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Re: Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter?
You're making some very salient points here, it is hard to judge, nor should we judge an aircraft on its initial public outing. You're also quite right in acknowledging that he could be right. From the get go-many of us have been concerned about the RD-93s and rightly so? One off aircraft, are almost always a little heavy, as many parts are "overengineered, and frankly may be heavier than they need to be, but designers tend to "overbuild" the initial, because they don't want to lose an aircraft or a test pilot,,,,, all aircraft go on a serious "diet" from an engineering aspect as they near production?
Now can a pilot or experienced person draw some conclusions from watching an aircraft demonstration, of course, that's why we give demonstrations, this was a very "sedate" demo, maybe conservative would be the word, the demo pilot likely flew it a little "slow" for maximum time in front of the crowd, and popping in and out of burner give a little WOW! factor to the "SHOW". This airplane is the "star" of Zuhai this year, and Rueben was trying to "pontificate" a little and temper some of that enthusiasm. So all in all the airplane is a "smash hit", it flies very well, and the "Roosian" engineer that he quoted saying that if Roosians had designed it blah, blah, blah. Well that's just the Russians selling their wares, the rules of gravity and aerodynamics are "immutable and universal" no amount of spin or krappola are gonna change the airflow?
good post xiabbie
You're making some very salient points here, it is hard to judge, nor should we judge an aircraft on its initial public outing. You're also quite right in acknowledging that he could be right. From the get go-many of us have been concerned about the RD-93s and rightly so? One off aircraft, are almost always a little heavy, as many parts are "overengineered, and frankly may be heavier than they need to be, but designers tend to "overbuild" the initial, because they don't want to lose an aircraft or a test pilot,,,,, all aircraft go on a serious "diet" from an engineering aspect as they near production?
Now can a pilot or experienced person draw some conclusions from watching an aircraft demonstration, of course, that's why we give demonstrations, this was a very "sedate" demo, maybe conservative would be the word, the demo pilot likely flew it a little "slow" for maximum time in front of the crowd, and popping in and out of burner give a little WOW! factor to the "SHOW". This airplane is the "star" of Zuhai this year, and Rueben was trying to "pontificate" a little and temper some of that enthusiasm. So all in all the airplane is a "smash hit", it flies very well, and the "Roosian" engineer that he quoted saying that if Roosians had designed it blah, blah, blah. Well that's just the Russians selling their wares, the rules of gravity and aerodynamics are "immutable and universal" no amount of spin or krappola are gonna change the airflow?
good post xiabbie
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Spectators take photos of a J-31 stealth fighter during its test flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, Nov 9, 2014.
Photo/Xinhua
Don’t forget to check out the http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/general-pictures/world-picture-day-7025.html
I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
Re: Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter?
Indeed, and I made a similar post today at the Key-Forum; there however You need to be more than carefully in saying anything that can be understood "against" Russia, the Russian overwhelming technology and even more against the JSF !
Anyway my point was that there is a certain really severe crash in Jane's quality regarding China. Just look at the report about the J-31-striker version, based on a small grainy CG made in a University related article not even to SAC ... .
Additionally I have the feeling that esp. from the US media it is a common behavior to show "hey they want to become a superpower, they are getter more and more dangerous, they are spying around - esp. our beloved US military industry - and investing billions of $$$$, but hey, they are first of all not smart enough to catch up, they still lack behind and it they will never catch up since we are Americans, the Pacific is ours !" Hoho ...
As such I would prefer a more serious look especially regarding the J-31 and please take it simply for what it is: It is a technical demonstrator, build more or less as a "private" (as far as this is possible in China) venture by AVIC. As such they are in fact correct, this type is right now underpowered, too heavy (in relation to the engine's thrust) it certainly lacks a fully operational mission suite and has surely some flaws here and there. Yes so what ?? ... look at the evolution from X-35 to F-35 ... and the same if it will proceed goes here for the J-31. No one would have claimed such stupid things about other technical demonstrators like the JSF-testbirds, the British EAP, the X-29 and X-31 ..., even the Russian Su-47/S-37 flew with "old" smoky engines.
Overall I rate this design a good basis to develop a decent medium-size fighter to replace older J-7, J-8, and so on ... but the fate of it is simply connected to the availability of a decent powerplant. If SAC can't find a modern medium-sized high-thrust turbofan - and this excludes even the latest RD-93 IMO - then it will fail.
I think as such we need to sit down and take a deep breath and wait ... maybe we need some tea to wait even longer
But that's just my opinion.
Deino
You're making some very salient points here, it is hard to judge, nor should we judge an aircraft on its initial public outing. You're also quite right in acknowledging that he could be right. From the get go-many of us have been concerned about the RD-93s and rightly so? One off aircraft, are almost always a little heavy, as many parts are "overengineered, and frankly may be heavier than they need to be, but designers tend to "overbuild" the initial, because they don't want to lose an aircraft or a test pilot,,,,, all aircraft go on a serious "diet" from an engineering aspect as they near production?
Now can a pilot or experienced person draw some conclusions from watching an aircraft demonstration, of course, that's why we give demonstrations, this was a very "sedate" demo, maybe conservative would be the word, the demo pilot likely flew it a little "slow" for maximum time in front of the crowd, and popping in and out of burner give a little WOW! factor to the "SHOW". This airplane is the "star" of Zuhai this year, and Rueben was trying to "pontificate" a little and temper some of that enthusiasm. So all in all the airplane is a "smash hit", it flies very well, and the "Roosian" engineer that he quoted saying that if Roosians had designed it blah, blah, blah. Well that's just the Russians selling their wares, the rules of gravity and aerodynamics are "immutable and universal" no amount of spin or krappola are gonna change the airflow?
good post xiabbie
Indeed, and I made a similar post today at the Key-Forum; there however You need to be more than carefully in saying anything that can be understood "against" Russia, the Russian overwhelming technology and even more against the JSF !
Anyway my point was that there is a certain really severe crash in Jane's quality regarding China. Just look at the report about the J-31-striker version, based on a small grainy CG made in a University related article not even to SAC ... .
Additionally I have the feeling that esp. from the US media it is a common behavior to show "hey they want to become a superpower, they are getter more and more dangerous, they are spying around - esp. our beloved US military industry - and investing billions of $$$$, but hey, they are first of all not smart enough to catch up, they still lack behind and it they will never catch up since we are Americans, the Pacific is ours !" Hoho ...
As such I would prefer a more serious look especially regarding the J-31 and please take it simply for what it is: It is a technical demonstrator, build more or less as a "private" (as far as this is possible in China) venture by AVIC. As such they are in fact correct, this type is right now underpowered, too heavy (in relation to the engine's thrust) it certainly lacks a fully operational mission suite and has surely some flaws here and there. Yes so what ?? ... look at the evolution from X-35 to F-35 ... and the same if it will proceed goes here for the J-31. No one would have claimed such stupid things about other technical demonstrators like the JSF-testbirds, the British EAP, the X-29 and X-31 ..., even the Russian Su-47/S-37 flew with "old" smoky engines.
Overall I rate this design a good basis to develop a decent medium-size fighter to replace older J-7, J-8, and so on ... but the fate of it is simply connected to the availability of a decent powerplant. If SAC can't find a modern medium-sized high-thrust turbofan - and this excludes even the latest RD-93 IMO - then it will fail.
I think as such we need to sit down and take a deep breath and wait ... maybe we need some tea to wait even longer
But that's just my opinion.
Deino
Re: Just how good is China's new 'stealth' fighter?
Agreed with Regard to the Russian angle, similar bias infecting our Ukrainian discussion as well. I have nothing against the Russians, I love the old AK, Mig-15, Mig 21???, Mig 29, the Sukhoi SU-27, and the lovely PAK-FA, however, I learned a long time ago to "separate the wheat from the chaff" with regard to Russian "tech/sales brochures. When you ask questions they tend to get very defensive/ugly, its really not worth your breath trying to get an objective honest answer, all you will get is "grief"?
In a similar vein there is an anti-China bias in our own media, one of the reasons I took up residence here on the Sino-Defense forum. I want to "know" what the real truth is in regard to aircraft/naval technology, and how all these "pretty" airplanes stack up. I really wish that AVIC had pulled out the stops on the J-31 flying display, heck, I could have jazzed that up to AFB standards, as I stated before the J-31 is a very fine airplane, probably has no serious bad habits or would not have been flown to and at Zuhai, sad Shenyang won't get the respect they deserve for this very fine airplane, but hey neither do the F-22 or F-35, or the J-20 for that matter? LOL
Oh? and I did feel bad for Vlad, his one act of honor and chivalry got him a slap, ouch? really, I do feel a little bad, he is quite the charmer?
Agreed with Regard to the Russian angle, similar bias infecting our Ukrainian discussion as well. I have nothing against the Russians, I love the old AK, Mig-15, Mig 21???, Mig 29, the Sukhoi SU-27, and the lovely PAK-FA, however, I learned a long time ago to "separate the wheat from the chaff" with regard to Russian "tech/sales brochures. When you ask questions they tend to get very defensive/ugly, its really not worth your breath trying to get an objective honest answer, all you will get is "grief"?
In a similar vein there is an anti-China bias in our own media, one of the reasons I took up residence here on the Sino-Defense forum. I want to "know" what the real truth is in regard to aircraft/naval technology, and how all these "pretty" airplanes stack up. I really wish that AVIC had pulled out the stops on the J-31 flying display, heck, I could have jazzed that up to AFB standards, as I stated before the J-31 is a very fine airplane, probably has no serious bad habits or would not have been flown to and at Zuhai, sad Shenyang won't get the respect they deserve for this very fine airplane, but hey neither do the F-22 or F-35, or the J-20 for that matter? LOL
Oh? and I did feel bad for Vlad, his one act of honor and chivalry got him a slap, ouch? really, I do feel a little bad, he is quite the charmer?
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kwaigonegin
Colonel
That's a very bold statement to make especially the last sentence
.. I've read a few of Reuben F. Johnson's work and he has been in the industry for many years. I would say he is pretty good at what he does and is considered an expert in Russian military technologies as well as those in China however with all that being said he ISN'T a fighter pilot nor is he an aeronautical specialist. It would be EXTREMELY difficult to gauge the kinematics and flight characteristics of an airplane by one single flight observation via the good old mk. one eyeball! Unless we know the exact wingloading, the aspect ratio etc and the entire transonic flight regime of the 31 and the Klimov engines it's quite difficult to say with 100% certainty how much energy bleed there was or wasn't. All I know is it's quite near imposible to tell by just pure visual observation on one single flight display UNLESS the pilot purposely stresses out the aircraft for that purpose and does exactly that .... which I seriously doubt the airshow pilot was doing.
Also a good experience pilot can make his plane 'look' like he is losing 'energy' (technically isn't) to the uneducated crowd when he really isn't. Again not saying this is the case here but there are just too many variables.
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That's a very bold statement to make especially the last sentence
It would be EXTREMELY difficult to gauge the kinematics and flight characteristics of an airplane by one single flight observation via the good old mk. one eyeball! Unless we know the exact wingloading, the aspect ratio etc and the entire transonic flight regime of the 31 and the Klimov engines it's quite difficult to say with 100% certainty how much energy bleed there was or wasn't. All I know is it's quite near imposible to tell by just pure visual observation on one single flight display UNLESS the pilot purposely stresses out the aircraft for that purpose and does exactly that .... which I seriously doubt the airshow pilot was doing.
Also a good experience pilot can make his plane 'look' like he is losing 'energy' (technically isn't) to the uneducated crowd when he really isn't. Again not saying this is the case here but there are just too many variables.
All very good points kwai and why I called "baloney" on Mr. Johnson, for one, he is quoting a "Russian Engineer", it really is the style of these folks to "play down" the capability of everyone else, they are really wanting to sell those poor old SU-35s and Mig-29Ks etc to whoever has the "jack"? So even though the Russians come to the Chinese trade show as friends, they don't mind putting others down, even their gracious hosts?
Two, if the J-31 pilot wished to do so he could just up the "cornering" speed 50 to 100 knots by advancing the power levers, in the US one thing that our pilots do is fly these very slow passes that illustrate low speed handling and lift, when you are "slow" and doing a "flyby" you apply lots of thrust as you pull the nose of the aircraft upward to make that "climbing turn away from the crowd, which gives the crowd a good view of the aircraft, and "rocks their socks with smoke and burners, in fact getting a little slow and pushing on the "blowers", you will note on you-tube, the aircraft almost appears to "stop" in mid-air, before climbing away on the pipe.
When you blow through at 450 to 500 knots, usually part of the show as well, you will note the pilot really doesn't need to get into the burners as he has "lots" of energy, and the airplane appears very much more responsive, which it is!
When I used to "fly through the front yard" at the farm, literally in whatever general aviation airplane I happened to be flying, usually our old 172, I would push the throttle to full as I began my low altitude pass from about 500' ft, accomplishing two things, 1. I knew I had an engine that was making full thrust, 2. I knew I had lots of airspeed/energy for the pull out, usually down below the trees and wires, through the front yard at 150 mph or so, short level run before the necessarily very steep pull into a climbing turn. The pull out was prolly 3Gs or so, so not a yank, but a very firm tug, and away you go... feels very kool, and looks kool too!
Lots of dead men who got too slow on the pass, hit the throttle and bamo, dead silence, you goin down now, pray you don't stall and spin in, lots and lots of those....... recall the Mig-29 a number of years ago, at the Paris Airshow,,,,, he lost an engine at LOW altitude, and LOW airspeed, and that Mig rolled over on her back and darn near killed him,,, very low chute opening, but any way, that's the idea, low and slow and hang it on the pipe, if you lose and engine, you will punch out or die? all in great fun!
broadsword
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It is more of a hazy sky blue, not the type you find in the clear skies of Europe.
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