Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
I need to point out here, aircraft design isn't the problem of China Aviation Industry.But the heart disease is domestic aircraft engine manufacturing (including basic materials research for aircraft engine).
As long as J-20 and J-31 still use Russia AL-31 and RD-93 engines to fly, they r just China stealth prototypes,testing aircrafts. PLAAF won't equip these fighters until WS-15 or other more powerful engines mass produce.:p

The time of the whole J-20/J-31 projects finish totally depend on WHEN domestic new engine come out.:mad:
What China Aviation Industry lack is Chinese GE,Pratt & Whitney engine company.

You have said a big true
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Is this confirmed? The production J-10B will come with WS-10 engine?

He said only J-10B prototype number five 1035 was equipped with WS-10; no one quite knows what the production models will be equipped with.
 

sdleio

Junior Member
Never see J-10A with WS-10A. Only J-10B PT-1035 has WS-10A.
Oooops, this is ... :p not J-11B and J-10B
ifQ4Y.jpg
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Of course not, i had said the biggest problem is China aircraft engine research,not aircraft design.
But Russia engines had limited China aircraft manufacturing.

Actually, access to Russian engines is enabling Chinese aircraft manufacturing, because without them, J10s and J11s simply would not by flying.

Sure, being wholly dependent on Russian engines would be a massive strategic problem, that is why China is putting so much effort and resources into the likes of the WS10A and WS13 etc.

If...i say if someday Russia government forbid exportting aircraft engines to China, it will seriously affected PLAAF fighter maintains and new fighters supply.

If Russia did that, it would be a blow, but I don't think it would be as bad as you fear. China has one of the biggest and best AL31 overhaul facilities in the world, and China is fully self sufficient on spares and replacement parts for AL31s. It is even likely that China is able, and has been, secretly pumping out brand new improved AL31s on the DL.

When you look at the number of AL31 powered planes the PLAAF operates, factor in the number of engines delivered by Russia, the life of the engines and the amount of time the PLAAF have been flying those planes, the numbers simply don't add up unless the Chinese have a way of replacing exhausted hours AL31s.

Current domestic WS-10 engines only low production capacity, can't meet Chinese aircraft production needs.

Pretty much all new built Flanker variants are using WS10A now. The only new planes still using AL31s are J10s.

This photo shot at 2012.10.28, see these new J-10A fighters in CAC... they still use Russia AL-31 engines, why not new J-10A install domestic WS-10 engines (We had seen many J-10A or J-11B with WS-10 engines)?
Except WS-10 can't meet J-10A production needs, i think there'r not any reasonable explanation.

I don't know, I can think of quite a few alternative explanations as to why J10As are still using AL31s.

1) Engines are bought in bulk and in advance. CAC is still sitting on a pretty big AL31 stockpile that they already bought and paid for. Switching to WS10A before those engines are used up would simply be a waste. Since the margins on J10s for the PLAAF is likely paper thin, CAC might actually loose money on J10s if they had to pay for WS10As on top of the AL31s they already bought for each new plane.

2) This might be the final batch of J10As before CAC switch production to J10Bs. What would be the point in spending time and money integrating WS10As into the J10A just as they are about to stop producing it? The J10B is already tested with WS10A, so it would be far more logical to just wait until the J10B to start using WS10As.

3) Costs and efficiency. Contrary to popular belief, China does not have infinity $$$, and money will play a part in investment decisions.

You also have to consider that the kind of highly skilled workforce needed to build top engine engines takes time and a lot of resources to train up, and once trained up, those workers need to be kept in work or else all the hard work and investment you put into training them up goes to waste.

Now, a new engine plant will take a while to ramp up to full production capacity. So, in year one, you might only produce 50 engines. But as your workers get more experienced and skilled, productivity improves. So the same plant using exactly the same number of machines and workers might be able to make 55 engines in the second year. 60 the year after and so on until it reaches peak production capacity.

We have no idea where WS10A currently is on that curve, but I think it is safe to say that it is not yet at peak production capacity.

That means that without any additional workers or new machines, that same plant could theoretically be able to produce many more engines in next year as productivity raises.

WS10A production today may be less than what is required to keep both SAC and CAC producing fighters at full rate, but that does not mean that the projected peak production capability of the WS10A factory is not enough to meet those engine needs.

If you add new capacity/workers so that WS10A production now is enough to satisfy SAC and CAC production today, you are almost certain to have excess production capacity for engines once the plant reaches peak output. What happens then? You close down part of the plant? Lay off some workers you just spent years and a lot of money training up? Get the PLAAF to order more planes than they need or could easily absorb each year?

Those are all sub-optimal solutions, and the most efficient solution could well be to just swallow your pride, and using imported AL31s to bridge the shortfall until your own engine factory reaches peak output whereby you become fully self-sufficient without ending up with excess capacity later down the road.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Is there a war China has to get to? It doesn't matter if there's low production or not. It's happening and money would be spent to increase production if Russia stopped selling. Are Chinese engines so bad they can only be used once? That's just like saying the US has a problem because it won't be able to produce fighters to replace as fast as they're shot down. Some fail to realize Russia doesn't want the West to win against China or they would be next. It's beyond military because what keeps the cash flowing into Russia is selling expensive oil. And why is oil so high priced? Because China buys oil not just the West anymore. So unless Russia plans to submit to the US, they have an interest in keeping the US's attention on a capable China. So unless the West is planning a sneak attack on China, low production now is meaningless.
 

Engineer

Major
This photo shot at 2012.10.28, see these new J-10A fighters in CAC... they still use Russia AL-31 engines, why not new J-10A install domestic WS-10 engines (We had seen many J-10A or J-11B with WS-10 engines)?
Except WS-10 can't meet J-10A production needs, i think there'r not any reasonable explanation.

Fitting a new engine type to an aircraft is not like changing a video card in your computer. The process will require some redesign of the aircraft but more importantly, flight tests have to be done all over again. That will take a couple of years to finish. It is simply not worth it to do that on J-10A when they are already working on J-10B which is even better.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Of course not, i had said the biggest problem is China aircraft engine research,not aircraft design.
But Russia engines had limited China aircraft manufacturing.If...i say if someday Russia government forbid exportting aircraft engines to China, it will seriously affected PLAAF fighter maintains and new fighters supply.

Current domestic WS-10 engines only low production capacity, can't meet Chinese aircraft production needs.

This photo shot at 2012.10.28, see these new J-10A fighters in CAC... they still use Russia AL-31 engines, why not new J-10A install domestic WS-10 engines (We had seen many J-10A or J-11B with WS-10 engines)?
Except WS-10 can't meet J-10A production needs, i think there'r not any reasonable explanation.

jmaie.jpg

MQFLB.jpg

Somehow you also choose to ignore the fact, the 2 new chase plane J-11BS of J-31 are running on domestic WS-10A, not to mention the new J-16 also deploy domestic engine only. Chengdu there has a huge AL-31 engine overhaul plants, it will be a huge waste if switch to all domestic engines.

But the reason I strongly believe is the rivalry between shenyang and chengu aviation despite both under AVIC. WS-10A production are control by shenyang. You see all shenyang J-11 series plane has no problem getting WS-10A engines while chengdu who dent shenyang pride with their J-10 and even beat them on 5th gen project with J-20 chosen by PLAAF. Can't swallow this defeat. The only way to prove they are still need to be respected is by preventing them from getting WS-10A engine for J-10 serial production. PLAAF and PLAN will be forced to take more J-11 series jet.

The only way chengdu can get away from this is by buying from Russian to free of the clutches of shenyang. Remember shenyang has a long tradition in china aviation. The head of shenyang aviation is always led by powerful CCP member. These members has connection to top PLA military members.

Chengdu is relatively new compare to shenyang.

I strongly believe if matters is getting serious like Russian not selling any AL-31 engine, top brass members will intervene to open all engines for all aviation corps.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Somehow you also choose to ignore the fact, the 2 new chase plane J-11BS of J-31 are running on domestic WS-10A, not to mention the new J-16 also deploy domestic engine only. Chengdu there has a huge AL-31 engine overhaul plants, it will be a huge waste if switch to all domestic engines.

But the reason I strongly believe is the rivalry between shenyang and chengu aviation despite both under AVIC. WS-10A production are control by shenyang. You see all shenyang J-11 series plane has no problem getting WS-10A engines while chengdu who dent shenyang pride with their J-10 and even beat them on 5th gen project with J-20 chosen by PLAAF. Can't swallow this defeat. The only way to prove they are still need to be respected is by preventing them from getting WS-10A engine for J-10 serial production. PLAAF and PLAN will be forced to take more J-11 series jet.

The only way chengdu can get away from this is by buying from Russian to free of the clutches of shenyang. Remember shenyang has a long tradition in china aviation. The head of shenyang aviation is always led by powerful CCP member. These members has connection to top PLA military members.

Chengdu is relatively new compare to shenyang.

I strongly believe if matters is getting serious like Russian not selling any AL-31 engine, top brass members will intervene to open all engines for all aviation corps.

I don't think for the sake of rivalry, they would compromise national security by not giving the other aircraft the engine it needs. The rivalry does play a role, but just as other suggested, the most likely explanation is that J-10 was originally designed base on AL-31 and it is just not cost effective to replace them with WS-10 anymore, when what you have is working well.

What is more likely is that J-31 and all other new aircraft in the future will be using purely domestic engines.
 
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