Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

NikeX said:

Without building and flying their designs how can the Chinese even understand what mistakes others have made? Its called experience and there is no short cut around it.

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Supercomputers expedite the process. That's a huge advantage they're going to have going forth when compared to the ATF. The JSF benefited from this too. Unfortunately the JSF is an example where dumping too many complex requirements onto one project is begging for Murphy's Law.

Oh really? China has never built an aircraft as complex as even a first generation stealth aircraft. And now you look at an aircraft like the J-20 and the latest offering from China and tell me that they will not make the same mistakes for sure! Sadly you are just judging these Chinese aircraft only from their shapes and those external views are a poor indicator as to the stealthiness of those Chinese aircraft.

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And you don't know that is isn't a poor indicator for its stealthiness. We can presume the PLA is stupid and is just making it up as it goes along, or we can presume the PLA is like any other well organized military, progressing when it's sure it has or can develop the technology.

You already know that these Chinese aircraft are flying without engines capable of supercruise due to Chinese engine manufactures have trouble mastering the technologies needed for advanced engines. And when capable engines will be available is anybodies guess

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At the same time, we also know the PLA has an engine intended for the J-20 already in development, and a potential backup in Russia exports. That hardly implies an organization that's blindly pursuing a project without a plan. What matters here is that if statements about the intended capabilities of the J-20 are accurate, it means they have an idea of how to reach those abilities.

You also have no idea of what coatings the Chinese can apply to these aircraft. But without the right coatings stealth is compromised. Stealth is more than shapes.

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Neither do you. Where you can assume the PLA doesn't know what it's doing, I can assume the PLA in fact does, and wouldn't go forth with such an ambitious project if it didn't.

What you are trying to tell me is that China is going to leap over nearly 30 years of hard work by Lockeed Skunkworks, Northrup and others and create in ten short years a state of the art stealth aircraft that is on the same level as these designs being flown today. And you are going to tell me that Chinese workers assembling designs in China for western companies are going to provide the labor?

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With some help from espionage and overall advances in technology, yes. China may be starting from scratch, but it won't need to reinvent the wheel. It can benefit from 30 extra years of publicly available research on computing, electronics, materials, etc.

Get a cold towel and wipe your face because you are dreaming friend. Wake up!

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Or you can get off your high horse and think about this objectively.

jackliu said:

Mig-29, tell me, isn't there anything that Russians are NOT good at?

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look all nations have good and bad points, China has achieved something that Russia has missed, a light stealth fifth generation fighter, J-31 is a really step ahead of Russia, honor to who deserves it, in that my respects to China.

But to minimize Russia`s efforts trying to disguise the Chinese short comings is just funny to me

J-31 is a great step forward indeed in terms of exportability and design effort.

But to say T-50 is not good is funny the jet supercruises, is very agile, and yes it is stealthy.

But true Russia now is behind China in the race for the light fifth generation fighter.
They might design one in the future.

But i will give you a few details people here forget.

Al-41F the original engine for MiG 1.44 was an 18 tonnes thrust engine, in fact the MiG 1.44 was not built in series and put into service not because it was not able to supercruise or had supermanueouvrability, but because it was to big and expensive, so 117S took the core of the Al-31F and the technologies of Al-41F and voila you get the 117S for Flankers, Russia designed T-50 as a cheaper alternative to MiG1.44 this was said by Victor Chepkin the head designer of the engines.
However Russia`s economy is uncapable to finance PAKFA, Su-35 and PAKDA at the same time design a F-35 type fighter, they are buying time perhaps later they will do it.


Al-41F in fact was to big to fit into PAKFA, so they designed a lighter and smaller engine the 117

состоянии, раз в полгода гоняем, чтобы не загустилась смазка. "АЛ 41Ф" полностью удовлетворяет всем требованиям двигателя пятого поколения по своему весу, по тяговым характеристикам, экономичности, надежности... То есть, двигатель-то имеется, но он оказался великоват для разрабатываемого "Сухим" самолета. (Хотя это тоже вопрос спорный

But give honor to who honor deserves


check the link

jackliu said:

Mig-29, tell me, isn't there anything that Russians are NOT good at?

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Hehe, jackliu, please don't get him started!

Now something about the development of 601's type 93 project (J-31):

1 新飞机要具有较好的隐身性能，正前方RCS 0.5m^2

2 机动性优于Su27

3 不要求有超音速巡航能力

And these are design requirments for type 92, the predecessor to J-31. Windtunnel tests started in 1991.

The following I think refers to the Tyep 93, which probabaly is the same as the J-31 prototype/platform we see today:

表中飞机起飞重量为14986.5Kg，机内燃油4860Kg，机动性计算取50%的机内燃油。升限计算重量取35%机内燃油；着陆性能计算取8.5%的机内燃油。飞机基本武器状态为带2枚近距格斗导弹。可见，高机动隐身战斗机的飞行性能全面优于F-16，它的爬升率和定常过载优于Su27飞机，其他飞行性能与Su27相当，只是在续航能力上稍差一点，可以采取空中加油的方法弥补。最后通过引进俄罗斯的软体进行类比高机动隐身战斗机的雷达散射截面积在正前方30度范围内，RCS达到0.3M^2，在侧向RCS小于1M^2。这表明该方案隐身性能已经满足了指标要求。

Here's a CD thread with more old pictures that bring back the good old memories:



In those days none of us had expected to see J-20 first and then within two years came out this so-called J-31...

And yes, for those of us unbiased China (Cbinese military) watchers, the time has come that from now on, and if 2012 won't bring an end to this old world, we're going to see a lot more of Chinese military toys that many had thought only the USA, the Europe, and the former USSR could have brought forth.

Now I'm no fan of killing machines. But I do like technology and its manefestation in these toys, in addition to all the other science and technology goodies... and all the endeavor by human beings as one race.

Player99 said:

1 新飞机要具有较好的隐身性能，正前方RCS 0.5m^2

2 机动性优于Su27

3 不要求有超音速巡航能力

And these are design requirments for type 92, the predecessor to J-31. Windtunnel tests started in 1991.

The following I think refers to the Tyep 93, which probabaly is the same as the J-31 prototype/platform we see today:

表中飞机起飞重量为14986.5Kg，机内燃油4860Kg，机动性计算取50%的机内燃油。升限计算重量取35%机内燃油；着陆性能计算取8.5%的机内燃油。飞机基本武器状态为带2枚近距格斗导弹。可见，高机动隐身战斗机的飞行性能全面优于F-16，它的爬升率和定常过载优于Su27飞机，其他飞行性能与Su27相当，只是在续航能力上稍差一点，可以采取空中加油的方法弥补。最后通过引进俄罗斯的软体进行类比高机动隐身战斗机的雷达散射截面积在正前方30度范围内，RCS达到0.3M^2，在侧向RCS小于1M^2。这表明该方案隐身性能已经满足了指标要求。

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If you read the bottom of the article, the "Afterwords" section, it says that the Type 93 was the first submission to be rejected. In simulations, it said that the Type 93 could only achieve a maximum kill ratio of 1:1.23 vs. the F-16, which was entirely unsatisfactory.

Plus, the pictures don't look like the J-31, and the "J-20" CG doesn't look anything like the real J-20 either. That article might just have been one of the thousands of fanboy hype articles released leading up to the J-20's unveiling. Some of the rumors from back then did come true, but the vast majority did not!

dingyibvs said:

If you read the bottom of the article, the "Afterwords" section, it says that the Type 93 was the first submission to be rejected. In simulations, it said that the Type 93 could only achieve a maximum kill ratio of 1:1.23 vs. the F-16, which was entirely unsatisfactory.

Plus, the pictures don't look like the J-31, and the "J-20" CG doesn't look anything like the real J-20 either. That article might just have been one of the thousands of fanboy hype articles released leading up to the J-20's unveiling. Some of the rumors from back then did come true, but the vast majority did not!

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Hehe, you're right. My bad. I first saw the CD article that links this Type 93 with the J-31. I then went to the source but failed to read the Afterwords part.

But I guess that this does say something about the work that became the foundation of the J-31 has been started long time ago. Without it, there wouldn't have been all of sudden this J-31.

AS far as I know, Project 310 is the code name for Shenyang's stealth fighter( Just like Project 718 for Chengdu's J-20 ). They paint "31001" on the first prototype might indicate the fact there is no official endorsement on this project yet. Anyway the bird is unlikely to be called J-31 in any cases.
BTW, rumor says there are 3 more stealth planes under development, and the "red B2" is not among them.