Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

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Schumacher

Senior Member
Good debate on Chinese & US stealth jets here. But keep in mind J20 may in fact become the first operational stealth in the world.
By operational I mean of course, among other stuffs, tiny, insignificant requirements like being able to perform their duties without poisoning to death the air/ground crew. :)
 

J-XX

Banned Idiot
Without building and flying their designs how can the Chinese even understand what mistakes others have made? Its called experience and there is no short cut around it.



What are you basing your assessment on? What non-US stealth aircraft are you comparing this opinion of your against? Right now the United States is it and the fact that the US is having some difficulty pulling all these elements together just demonstrates how difficult it is to assemble a competent stealthy aircraft.

And you should remember that F-22 and F-35 are SECOND generation stealth aircraft with F-117 and B-2 being the first generation.



Oh really? China has never built an aircraft as complex as even a first generation stealth aircraft. And now you look at an aircraft like the J-20 and the latest offering from China and tell me that they will not make the same mistakes for sure! Sadly you are just judging these Chinese aircraft only from their shapes and those external views are a poor indicator as to the stealthiness of those Chinese aircraft.

You already know that these Chinese aircraft are flying without engines capable of supercruise due to Chinese engine manufactures have trouble mastering the technologies needed for advanced engines. And when capable engines will be available is anybodies guess

You also have no idea of what coatings the Chinese can apply to these aircraft. But without the right coatings stealth is compromised. Stealth is more than shapes.

What you are trying to tell me is that China is going to leap over nearly 30 years of hard work by Lockeed Skunkworks, Northrup and others and create in ten short years a state of the art stealth aircraft that is on the same level as these designs being flown today. And you are going to tell me that Chinese workers assembling designs in China for western companies are going to provide the labor?

Get a cold towel and wipe your face because you are dreaming friend. Wake up!

so a fanboy like you think you know more than the chinese engineers. riiight. height of delusion.

only one dreaming is you mate, F-22 and F-35 are not even proven in battle, all a bunch of hype from the american propaganda machines.

you assume china is decades behind the US in everything just because you cant accept the hard truth china is closing the gap very rapidly.

dream on.
 

kyuryu

Junior Member
NikeX, to Yorkie's point, systems integration / fusion is a major issue for all aircraft manufacturers, BUT, I wouldn't overstate the point that the US has "mastered" this. The much touted JSF program has been through 3 major re-structures in the the past few years and the program is still struggling to correct latency issues with the HMS, ongoing issues with stabilising the software and fully integrating all the elements into a fully combat capable system and the inherent complexity of its logistics management system, on time and (no where near) on budget ... even the new incoming USAF Major General Christopher Bogdan, deputy program executive officer, has quite publicly stated this as recently as a few days ago. I can't insert the link, but search Business Week "Air-force-official-slams-lockheed-martin-on-f-35-program" published 17-Sept-2012.

You're right to point out that the engines and therefore the inability of current Chinese fighters to have access to high thrust engines that allow super-cruise remains a key weakness, but one that one could reasonably expect in the next 2-5 years time will be resolved. The Russian's have started testing the PAK-FA with engines are not indicative of the final build, on the expectation that higher trust, production ready examples will be ready in time. The measured and deliberate steps as well as the massive resources that Chinese is now devoting to correcting this key strategic weakness suggests that they'll get there in a similar time frame and in-time for production ready examples in 2017-18.

IMHO, the key is not whether or not the Chinese stealth fighters (J-20 and/or J-31) are 100% as good as or better than the US planes across all aspects, rather, 'good enough' for their introduction to effectively counter a key strategic advantage that the US once enjoyed over virtually all current and potential rivals. Reduced signature aircraft blunt the effectiveness of medium range AAM, as the acquisition window for the radar in the AAM to acquire the target is reduced in the same way a planes x-band radar can't detect or effectively lock-onto. They greatly complicate deployment of counter-air, key ISR and logistics (tanker / transport) assets movement.

It then becomes a game of "political will" - if I was to deploy my forces and be assured of an 100% success rate against mission objectives with minimal casualties and loss of assets... there's a higher likelihood that you'd pursue this option, relatively to a scenario that sees you with a significantly lower % probability of achieving all your stated mission objectives and/or all the while incurring a significant or even unacceptable loss of personnel and/or material to achieve your objectives...
 

Player99

Junior Member
Thanks to gentle breeze@ key pub

mack8, I think you told me that you couldn't see the content by the link I posted. I tried to copy those CGI's for you but could find neither the thread on CD nor the link I posted here... Did I post it here or on China-defense.com?
 

Player99

Junior Member
It is interesting to note how China haters (ie. journalists) are so pathetic that they have to resort to pointing at something they can't see to claim a stealth fighter isn't a stealth fighter. When J-20 came out, those people say it is not stealthy because of its shapes. Now that Shenyang has a miniature F-22, those same people claim shape is not as important as coating.

We should remember that journalsts are average human beings just like the fanboys...whose traits we all share a bit (or a lot). So whatever pathetic attempts we see in the China-bashing fanboys, we naturally will see in the journalits, the politicians, the ... and their dogs. We just have to live with that. :)
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
It is interesting to note how China haters (ie. journalists) are so pathetic that they have to resort to pointing at something they can't see to claim a stealth fighter isn't a stealth fighter. When J-20 came out, those people say it is not stealthy because of its shapes. Now that Shenyang has a miniature F-22, those same people claim shape is not as important as coating.

Or that the shaping needs to be precise or something too difficult for the feeble Chinese mind to master blah blah blah.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Mind clarifying what you're trying to say here?

The Sherman won through sheer weight of numbers, and I read that the T-34 was actually a pretty advanced design, that also happened to have sheer weight of numbers.

So are you trying to say that the J-31 is actually very advanced, that it's just going to outnumber the F-22/F-35 on the battlefield to win, both, or neither?

One-on-one, neither the Sherman or the T34 had much chance against a Tiger, but the Tiger paid for that individual superiority by being far more expensive to make than was justified by the increased performance.

I do not expect the gap between the J31 and the F22 to be as large as that between the T34 and Tiger, but I would expect the price difference between them to be somewhat similar. Thus the PLAAF would be able to field far far more J31s than the USAF have F22s, and in any war, the J31 would likely win through sheer weight of numbers.

WRT the F35, well since that is now approaching the F22 price tag per plane, it would be interesting to see just how many the US can afford to buy. However, I do not expect the PLAAF to buy more J31s than the US F35s, so overall America should still maintain a material advantage even after the PLA has deployed J20s and J31s in numbers.

So my point was more that the F22/35 might both be better than the J31, but not by enough of a margin to justify the likely price difference.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Advanced stealth fighters use a whole host of technologies to make an aircraft perform in today's air combat environment. There are engines, coatings, avionics,software and pilot integration just to name a few. Seeing how difficult it has been to bring F-22 and F-35 to operational status there is no indication China will have it any easier. Ten to fifteen years seems to be the standard time. More if you are starting further behind.
On the other hand, the PLAAF isn't stupid. If they didn't think they could do it they wouldn't have tried.
 
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