Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and Global South strategic cooperation

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
You seem to be unable to assess these countries on their whole history except for the last 12 months.

If you think that Saudi Arabia is now a Chinese ally and can't return to a new republican president of the US then I'm not sure what to say except you might get a bad surprise once Trump is back. They haven't stopped military cooperation with the US, have they? They want to have a way back, just in case.

Not all the GCC members followed Saudi Arabia in ending and then normalising relations with Iran. Countries like Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman also don't really matter and Qatar is not friendly with the Saudis. Egypt is really the only major country. Syria and Yemen were obviously part of the deal with Iran. The Saudis have some sway in the Arab league, but most countries have already accepted that Assad has won and they all want to get rid of the refugees.

The Saudis also don't lead the Arab world in their response to Israel. Many countries signed the Abraham accords while the Saudis watched.

I don't understand why you are surprised that the Saudi intervention in Yemen ends when the Saudi troops go home?

He's widely regarded as a slightly crazy person who occasionally makes extreme statements. But the rhetoric doesn't matter as much as the actions. And you don't need to walk anything back when you're a literal NATO member

Syria is an example of how Turkish objectives are directly clashing with Russia and probably China. I think we can agree that Assad is the best option for Syria. Why do you think that the next Turkish foreign policy adventure will be more positive?

You have to be very careful when reading media about US allies. The western media will take and amplify the myths these countries have about themselves.
Turkey stopped supporting ISIS a long time ago. They're now directly fighting the Kurdish SDF, the last remaining American proxy in the region. They agreed to cooperate with Assad long before the Saudis did.

China brought Iran and Saudi Arabia, bringing together Qataris, Turks, Egyptians and other Arab regimes is much easier. They all have a common enemy.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
China brought Iran and Saudi Arabia, bringing together Qataris, Turks, Egyptians and other Arab regimes is much easier. They all have a common enemy.
What China did with Iran and Saudi was a sweet bit of diplomacy, but I wouldn't burden it with more than it can bear. The agreement is quite modest: restoration of diplomatic ties and reduction of hostilities. Ultimately, both agreed to it because both were stuck in expensive quagmires from which neither could unilaterally withdraw. Since victory was impossible, a mutual disengagement became feasible.

What you're talking about is far more ambitious and involves far deeper economic and political interests. The Arabs ex. Qatar and Qatar/Turkey are at loggerheads because of the Muslim Brotherhood influence in the latter, which threatens their own regime survival. Turkey and Egypt are backing different sides in the Libyan civil war and have contesting claims over gas reserves in the Mediterranean.

What's the common enemy which could overcome all this?
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
What China did with Iran and Saudi was a sweet bit of diplomacy, but I wouldn't burden it with more than it can bear. The agreement is quite modest: restoration of diplomatic ties and reduction of hostilities. Ultimately, both agreed to it because both were stuck in expensive quagmires from which neither could unilaterally withdraw. Since victory was impossible, a mutual disengagement became feasible.

What you're talking about is far more ambitious and involves far deeper economic and political interests. The Arabs ex. Qatar and Qatar/Turkey are at loggerheads because of the Muslim Brotherhood influence in the latter, which threatens their own regime survival. Turkey and Egypt are backing different sides in the Libyan civil war and have contesting claims over gas reserves in the Mediterranean.

What's the common enemy which could overcome all this?
I think you are underselling what China achieved here. A few years ago, the Iran-Saudi conflict had escalated into a mini world war. Not only were they fighting in Yemen and Syria, but every Islamic country around the world with a Shi'ite minority was experiencing sectarian violence, going as far as Nigeria. The Yemen conflict was expensive but it could have gone on a lot longer. Iran and Iraq were devastated by their war, yet that went on for a decade. The Saudi-Iran conflict was mostly a proxy war, and could have easily gone on for much longer. Getting them in the room was unthinkable just a few years ago, let alone shaking hands and cooperating with each other.

The common enemy is Israel and western globalism. I've been saying for some time the end goal of Chinese foreign policy in the Middle East would be to get them enact some sort of new oil embargo on America. With the sanctions on Russia and Venezuela it would be far more effective than the one in the 70s.

As for the Muslim Brotherhood, one of their biggest rallying calls is opposition to close ties with America, and everything that leads to (LGBT propaganda, Zionism, etc) I think Arab states adopting a more anti-imperialist stance will undermine popular support for extreme Islamic factions.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I think you are underselling what China achieved here. A few years ago, the Iran-Saudi conflict had escalated into a mini world war. Not only were they fighting in Yemen and Syria, but every Islamic country around the world with a Shi'ite minority was experiencing sectarian violence, going as far as Nigeria. The Yemen conflict was expensive but it could have gone on a lot longer. Iran and Iraq were devastated by their war, yet that went on for a decade. The Saudi-Iran conflict was mostly a proxy war, and could have easily gone on for much longer. Getting them in the room was unthinkable just a few years ago, let alone shaking hands and cooperating with each other.
I don't intend to undersell what Chinese diplomacy accomplished. It was a worthy and difficult feat to get this agreement, but the structural factors that I pointed out are what made it possible. China (and others like Iraq) did the legwork, but it was the alignment of incentives that made it possible for the legwork to get a result.
The common enemy is Israel and western globalism. I've been saying for some time the end goal of Chinese foreign policy in the Middle East would be to get them enact some sort of new oil embargo on America. With the sanctions on Russia and Venezuela it would be far more effective than the one in the 70s.
That's never going to happen. We live in a very different world from the Cold War, both politically and economically. In an ironic way it's the triumph of capitalism following the Cold War - everyone now (besides America) wants to put problems on the backburner and do business. The world market is much more integrated and there isn't the political bifurcation of the Cold War. Even with the sanctions on Russia, a lot of Russian trade with the West persists through intermediaries. Global trade links are now dense enough to almost immediately reroute sanctioned goods.

The politics of the Gulf petromonarchies have also changed. Although there are still voices calling for jihad against Israel, they've been completely marginalized. Countries like the UAE have formally established diplomatic relations with Israel, and while Saudi Arabia hasn't, it cooperates very closely with Israel.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, one of their biggest rallying calls is opposition to close ties with America, and everything that leads to (LGBT propaganda, Zionism, etc) I think Arab states adopting a more anti-imperialist stance will undermine popular support for extreme Islamic factions.
I thought that for a while, but the Muslim Brotherhood is far more insidious than that. I've been interested in the history of these groups and the Middle East more broadly since the start of the Arab Spring and the Syrian Civil War, and I can tell you that the MB are the most unprincipled, contemptible opportunists imaginable. They'll work hand in glove with Al-Qaeda one moment and extol the virtues of liberal democracy the next. If by some miracle the Middle East embraced LGBT propaganda tomorrow, the MB will be first to the pride parade.

They have no enmity with America, Israel, or the West in general whatsoever. They're a NED poster child and their rallying cry these days is Democracy™.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
That's not how public opinion works with turkey.

Why should china give anything to turkey if turkey still undermining Chinese security?

Held out for concession is not resisting.
What are the concessions that China is giving to Turkey?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what is China giving up?
Having turkey to be pro china is too much to pay. How much will china have to give to satisfy turkey.

Iran and china have naval drill, even Saudis haven't reach this yet.
you know China had military drill with Turkey before, right?
Saudis restore everything to Syria without condition, why not turkey just leave.
Who told you they are not ready to leave. I don't know if you noticed, but there is a big election going on in Turkey right now. Erdogan might just be a little pre-occupied.
French also said to have independence from US, so not that big issue.

I agree china should keep Erdogan in power, but also have to isolating turkey at the same time to get better relation with neighbors.
lol, you are going to compare France's relation to US with Turkey?
Why would China need to isolate Turkey? It doesn't need to do anything. Just behave normally and let Turkey come in and be welcoming like you would with any country looking for friendly relations.

You seem to be unable to assess these countries on their whole history except for the last 12 months.

If you think that Saudi Arabia is now a Chinese ally and can't return to a new republican president of the US then I'm not sure what to say except you might get a bad surprise once Trump is back. They haven't stopped military cooperation with the US, have they? They want to have a way back, just in case.
think about why Saudi Arabia is picking China & what the Republicans could offer

Not all the GCC members followed Saudi Arabia in ending and then normalising relations with Iran. Countries like Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman also don't really matter and Qatar is not friendly with the Saudis. Egypt is really the only major country. Syria and Yemen were obviously part of the deal with Iran. The Saudis have some sway in the Arab league, but most countries have already accepted that Assad has won and they all want to get rid of the refugees.
We have Egypt & UAE normalizing relationships with Iran. And that came right after Saudis did that.

Saudis set up all the GCC countries and Arab league to meet with China When Xi visited. Yeah, I would say Saudis have quite the pull in Arab League
The Saudis also don't lead the Arab world in their response to Israel. Many countries signed the Abraham accords while the Saudis watched.

I don't understand why you are surprised that the Saudi intervention in Yemen ends when the Saudi troops go home?

He's widely regarded as a slightly crazy person who occasionally makes extreme statements. But the rhetoric doesn't matter as much as the actions. And you don't need to walk anything back when you're a literal NATO member

Syria is an example of how Turkish objectives are directly clashing with Russia and probably China. I think we can agree that Assad is the best option for Syria. Why do you think that the next Turkish foreign policy adventure will be more positive?

You have to be very careful when reading media about US allies. The western media will take and amplify the myths these countries have about themselves.
Turkey is looking to get out of Syria. There are these negotiations right now. When did you become like a Syria lover?

I'm pro-China's interests. Maybe some of you should do the same

Just keep in mind, what has transpired since China helped negotiate the peace bw Iran and Saudi Arabia has been quite astonishing. No one expects things to be great forever, but there is positive wind behind China in the region. If Turkey comes over also, it's a major plus, not a minus. People should keep these things in mind.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
I don't intend to undersell what Chinese diplomacy accomplished. It was a worthy and difficult feat to get this agreement, but the structural factors that I pointed out are what made it possible. China (and others like Iraq) did the legwork, but it was the alignment of incentives that made it possible for the legwork to get a result.
Agreed.
That's never going to happen. We live in a very different world from the Cold War, both politically and economically. In an ironic way it's the triumph of capitalism following the Cold War - everyone now (besides America) wants to put problems on the backburner and do business. The world market is much more integrated and there isn't the political bifurcation of the Cold War. Even with the sanctions on Russia, a lot of Russian trade with the West persists through intermediaries. Global trade links are now dense enough to almost immediately reroute sanctioned goods.
The trade embargo of the 70s was much more difficult for OPEC to sustain than it would be today. Back then the west was the only significant consumer of oil. Today you've got China alone, not to mention the likes of India, Africa and Latin America.

I think the world is pretty getting bifurcated today between the two major powers America and China, and the interests of the Middle East align more with China than America.

But even if I were to cede the political aspect, you can just as much make an economic argument. Thanks to western sanctions the Middle East are now the major suppliers of oil/gas.. If you control the supply, you control the prices. It doesn't need to be a complete shutdown in exports like the 70s, a simple reduction in production would have a bigger impact over a longer period.

We've already seen that with the "unexpected" cuts in OPEC production last year, I would advocate continuing to cut production over a prolonged period.
The politics of the Gulf petromonarchies have also changed. Although there are still voices calling for jihad against Israel, they've been completely marginalized. Countries like the UAE have formally established diplomatic relations with Israel, and while Saudi Arabia hasn't, it cooperates very closely with Israel.

I thought that for a while, but the Muslim Brotherhood is far more insidious than that. I've been interested in the history of these groups and the Middle East more broadly since the start of the Arab Spring and the Syrian Civil War, and I can tell you that the MB are the most unprincipled, contemptible opportunists imaginable. They'll work hand in glove with Al-Qaeda one moment and extol the virtues of liberal democracy the next. If by some miracle the Middle East embraced LGBT propaganda tomorrow, the MB will be first to the pride parade.

They have no enmity with America, Israel, or the West in general whatsoever. They're a NED poster child and their rallying cry these days is Democracy™.
Marginalised by whom? Arab monarchies operate foreign policy for personal self interest only. Either they are bribed to have relations with Israel (like Egypt and Jordan) or they are paranoid another Saddam will emerge among them and depend upon western arms and support. GCC ties with Israel aren't exactly new, the Mossad operative Epstein had a Saudi passport.

There is a limit to what even dictators tolerate, every time Israel launches an operation against Palestinians it pisses off everyone in the Middle East.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
But even if I were to cede the political aspect, you can just as much make an economic argument. Thanks to western sanctions the Middle East are now the major suppliers of oil/gas.. If you control the supply, you control the prices. It doesn't need to be a complete shutdown in exports like the 70s, a simple reduction in production would have a bigger impact over a longer period.
That's very different from an embargo. Yes, that's feasible and it's very likely such cuts will be OPEC's policy going forward.
Marginalised by whom?
Arab governments. Religious fanaticism was fomented by these governments during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan to recruit mujahideen. This was part of a broader American effort to use religion to attack the USSR and promote sedition within it. This support continued until very recently, when even the Saudi monarchy turned on their religious establishment. They finally understood that stoking Islamic fundamentalism won't get them any geopolitical results; it'll just nurture movements that want to overthrow them and drag their societies back to the dark ages.
Arab monarchies operate foreign policy for personal self interest only.
That's another of the myths I used to believe. The truth is that Arab monarchies and military dictatorships operate their foreign policy in the best interest of their states. Yes, they're corrupt and incompetent, but that doesn't negate the point that they're not running it for personal self-interest. The reason they're so authoritarian is that they "govern" populations that are stricken by religious fundamentalism, are poorly educated and economically useless, and entitled in the extreme. The Gulf monarchies can paper this problem over with money, the rest don't have that luxury.

That's why these states find the Muslim Brotherhood completely intolerable. Their brand of Democracy™ appeals to these populations because they're both extremely politically naïve and economically entitled. They believe liberal democracy is a magic wand that will transform their societies overnight from poverty-stricken dumps (at least the poor ones without the oil) to beacons of prosperity and progress. I often mock Indians for their delusion but the Arab "democrat" kind is on a different level.

They took the worst aspect of every system. All they got from capitalism was corruption and all they got from socialism was entitlement.
Either they are bribed to have relations with Israel (like Egypt and Jordan)
If I were Egypt or Jordan, would I rather have a stable, predictable, rational state on my border that I have an enduring peace that has lasted decades with or would I rather have
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I think the answer is clear.
they are paranoid another Saddam will emerge among them and depend upon western arms and support.
Ultimately, they want peace and security which is a very legitimate aspiration. Too bad for them that they're in a bad neighbourhood.
the Mossad operative Epstein had a Saudi passport.
Interesting, this I didn't know. I'd like to see a well-sourced documentary about that guy instead of the usual rumourmongering, but I doubt anything like that will exist for some time.
There is a limit to what even dictators tolerate, every time Israel launches an operation against Palestinians it pisses off everyone in the Middle East.
Arab publics get more worked up over a football match than anything that happens to Palestinians.
 

resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
What are the concessions that China is giving to Turkey?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what is China giving up?

you know China had military drill with Turkey before, right?

Who told you they are not ready to leave. I don't know if you noticed, but there is a big election going on in Turkey right now. Erdogan might just be a little pre-occupied.

lol, you are going to compare France's relation to US with Turkey?
Why would China need to isolate Turkey? It doesn't need to do anything. Just behave normally and let Turkey come in and be welcoming like you would with any country looking for friendly relations.
Concession in my mention is about turkey with the west.

China hasn't giving up anything yet since china isn't prioritize relation with turkey.

It's not just a drill. Iran also share methods of CIA infiltration which lead to crackdown of spy network. Iran is far more important.

Yes, it's comparable as both are in NATO, do the same action.

Turkey would at least had leaved idlib area now if there's an intention to leave. Turkey hasn't step back.

Isolate means not let turkey go too close with west and distancing at the same time. Prioritize neighbors first then turkey.
 
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resistance

Junior Member
Registered Member
Turkey is looking to get out of Syria. There are these negotiations right now. When did you become like a Syria lover?

I'm pro-China's interests. Maybe some of you should do the same

Just keep in mind, what has transpired since China helped negotiate the peace bw Iran and Saudi Arabia has been quite astonishing. No one expects things to be great forever, but there is positive wind behind China in the region. If Turkey comes over also, it's a major plus, not a minus. People should keep these things in mind.

I'm pro Chinese interests that's why I prioritize relation turkey to be the last in region.

Major blow to be precise. Two things both Saudis and Iran agree is threat from Turkish influence. Making three countries come together is even far harder than getting Algeria and Morocco to come together.
 
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