Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

[b787]

A couple of quick questions for b787 and the Russian perspective on T-50 going forward:

- With reports of serial production and delivery being slated to begin next year, does this mean the current airframe configuration has been locked in as final?
- What kind of aircraft manufacture numbers are expected once serial production has begun (# per year and also total # expected in this serial build before a possible airframe refresh/redesign is looked at)?

Appreciate your insights.

To be honest i am not more than a fanboy, however i read the Russian aerospace news on the daily basis from sources like Rostec, Sukhoi, RIA, Interfax, the Russian ministry of defense webportal and several Russian aviation forums.

My opinion and i say from a fanboy, who has no more than TV zvezda or yourtube as main video sources is that T-50 will have 3 main variants in the next 5 years, the one to be build in 2016 is not the final version but the interim version, by 2020 they probably will switch to a more powerful version with the new engine and perhaps a more advance AESA radar based upon the tech of the one used for MiG-35, the Indian version will be a customized version but still will keep some secrets from the Indians like radar and engine tech, that is the reason in my opinion they want Rafale tech to suplement whatever technology is not being shared by Russia.

I doubt Russia will share all the technology, for example the Type 30 is far more advanced than the current engine, i have my doubts it will be built in India under license, perhaps 117 might be built or even exported to China or India, and type 30 very likely will be the engine upon which they might develop a single engine fifth generation fighter.

The airframe, i have no idea if that is the final configuration and to be honest i do not know how much the smart skin will help PAKFA to detect stealth fighters and still keep it concealed from the enemy radars but in terms of speed and maneuverability PAKFA will be very difficult to be downed because it is supposed to supercruise at Mach 1.8 and fly at a max speed of 2600 km/h or even slightly more.

The only doubt i have is what performance gains the new engine will give it.

 

[b787]

I'm rather certain that 051 is at the very least on a limited flying schedule, on the other hand, many of the F-35s have been as well, and if the wings, stabs, nose, landing gear and instrumentation of 055 are usable, they will no doubt pull a center fuse and rebuild it, if its economically possible, and as you say we should know that in the next weeks or months. We rebuilt the F-22 prototype that pancaked onto the runway due to FCS failure, but we never flew it again?

!

The Russians have a different industrial philosophy, they will built T-50 regardless it is the final version, T-50 i am sure is entering low series production, the jet they will make is not the final product, is similar to what Lockheed is doing now delivering F-35 which in many ways are not ready, Russia did that in the past with aircraft like MiG-23 and Tu-22M, the T-50s they will make will be honed up as their technology improves, but well that is my point of view.
I recommend you to see T-50 has all the S-47 and MiG1.44 technology as behind it, plus the Su-30SM/Su-35S technology already operational, the jet in reality has been in the making since 1986.

 

[devil.moh]

So thats the plan !!

 

[A Bar Brother]

To be honest i am not more than a fanboy, however i read the Russian aerospace news on the daily basis from sources like Rostec, Sukhoi, RIA, Interfax, the Russian ministry of defense webportal and several Russian aviation forums.

My opinion and i say from a fanboy, who has no more than TV zvezda or yourtube as main video sources is that T-50 will have 3 main variants in the next 5 years, the one to be build in 2016 is not the final version but the interim version, by 2020 they probably will switch to a more powerful version with the new engine and perhaps a more advance AESA radar based upon the tech of the one used for MiG-35, the Indian version will be a customized version but still will keep some secrets from the Indians like radar and engine tech, that is the reason in my opinion they want Rafale tech to suplement whatever technology is not being shared by Russia.

I doubt Russia will share all the technology, for example the Type 30 is far more advanced than the current engine, i have my doubts it will be built in India under license, perhaps 117 might be built or even exported to China or India, and type 30 very likely will be the engine upon which they might develop a single engine fifth generation fighter.

The airframe, i have no idea if that is the final configuration and to be honest i do not know how much the smart skin will help PAKFA to detect stealth fighters and still keep it concealed from the enemy radars but in terms of speed and maneuverability PAKFA will be very difficult to be downed because it is supposed to supercruise at Mach 1.8 and fly at a max speed of 2600 km/h or even slightly more.

The only doubt i have is what performance gains the new engine will give it.

The idea behind the JV is to transfer all technologies to India, same as the Brahmos/Brahmos-2.

Eventually, everything will be manufactured in both Russia and India. That's 100% of the airframe, engine and electronics. So the Russians will have to transfer the Izd 30 to India for that to happen. After that, the aircraft will be made both in India and Russia for the export market. So both HAL and Sukhoi will be held responsible as the OEM.

The radar and electronics may be re-developed in part with new Indo-Russian software, that's why it has a whole new designation. While the Russian radar is called the N036, the Indian version will be the N079. For comparison, the Indian and Russian designation for the Bars on Su-30MKI and Su-30SM is the same, the N011M.

Anyway, India will only get one prototype with the 117. The remaining, including the serial production versions will be based on the Izd 30. So the 117 ToT is not needed in India.

Rafale is entirely different and doesn't even follow the same timeline. The purpose of Rafale is to inject western technologies into the Indian aerospace industry. That's why the offsets are 50%, while most other deals only have offsets of 30%. Even the companies involved will be different. For eg: The RBE-2AA will be manufactured by a company called BEL located in Bangalore while the FGFA's radar will be manufactured by HAL's subsidiary in Hyderabad, they are working on the Bars now. Similarly, the FGFA's cockpit design and production will be done by HAL while Rafale's will be done by a company called SAMTEL.

 

[A Bar Brother]

So thats the plan !!

It's incorrect. The Stage-2 is entirely missing. Only Su-50, Su-55-FGFA are correct. Su-50EI/Su-50EK/Su-50ES are wrong.

There should be another prototype tree with the T-50-6-2 and beyond, probably up to T-50-12 along with an additional 2 or 3 prototypes for India. The Su-50EI and Su-55 FGFA should be under that tree. The Russian version should also be under a new tree. One is correct, and the other one should be along with the Su-50EI under the second tree.

 

[b787]

The idea behind the JV is to transfer all technologies to India, same as the Brahmos/Brahmos-2.

Eventually, everything will be manufactured in both Russia and India. That's 100% of the airframe, engine and electronics. So the Russians will have to transfer the Izd 30 to India for that to happen. After that, the aircraft will be made both in India and Russia for the export market. So both HAL and Sukhoi will be held responsible as the OEM.

The radar and electronics may be re-developed in part with new Indo-Russian software, that's why it has a whole new designation. While the Russian radar is called the N036, the Indian version will be the N079. For comparison, the Indian and Russian designation for the Bars on Su-30MKI and Su-30SM is the same, the N011M.

Anyway, India will only get one prototype with the 117. The remaining, including the serial production versions will be based on the Izd 30. So the 117 ToT is not needed in India.

Rafale is entirely different and doesn't even follow the same timeline. The purpose of Rafale is to inject western technologies into the Indian aerospace industry. That's why the offsets are 50%, while most other deals only have offsets of 30%. Even the companies involved will be different. For eg: The RBE-2AA will be manufactured by a company called BEL located in Bangalore while the FGFA's radar will be manufactured by HAL's subsidiary in Hyderabad, they are working on the Bars now. Similarly, the FGFA's cockpit design and production will be done by HAL while Rafale's will be done by a company called SAMTEL.

i do not deny India has an immaculate track record in terms of aircraft manufacture license
s, plus India has always built the engines of the Russian/Soviet aircraft manufactured by HAL, from the MiG-21 to the Su-30MKI, and indeed you might be right, i just said that because each license was not the most advanced jet of the Soviet/Russian air force at the time, but now at this moment it is the most advanced jet, who knows Russia might have 2 new aircraft by 2025 the light and heavy replacements of MiG-29 and MiG-31, these two fifth generation aircraft might be developed as the Russian statement have promised, but i think Russia will lag the delivery to India at least to have better tech themselves

 

[Deino]

... who knows Russia might have 2 new aircraft by 2025 the light and heavy replacements of MiG-29 and MiG-31, ...

Come on b787 ... stay realistic and do not believe each and every crap that is written by some certain Russian high level military or industrial leader !!

If all what was written would have become true, the RuN would already have five carrier battle groups, the T-50 would be flying operationally in the hundreds and a new strategic bomber would enter service soon. Just look at the T50 and You can be sure that not even one of them if flying by 2025 - besides the PAK-DA and the new An-124 successor for sure - nor that there will ever be two additional fifth generation fighters from Russia within that timeframe.

If I'm wrong I will immediately resign from posting here !

Again I don't want to bash the Russian aviation industry nor their ability to develop high-end top-notch types ... but not within that given time and even less in mind of the current political situation. Who should simply pay for all that ???


Deino

 

[A Bar Brother]

who knows Russia might have 2 new aircraft by 2025 the light and heavy replacements of MiG-29 and MiG-31, these two fifth generation aircraft might be developed as the Russian statement have promised,

Very unlikely. It is possible the two new aircraft will be developed after the T-50 is fully developed. If the Russians plan on making a lighter 5th gen, it will only be after the completion of the T-50 Stage-2.

but i think Russia will lag the delivery to India at least to have better tech themselves

The exact opposite. Russia will deliver to India first and then develop a version that's better for themselves, and by then IAF would have funded an even better MLU. That's how it has been.

The best Mig-21 version is flown by India.

The Su-30MKI was inducted first in India, followed by a better version, Su-30SM, by Russia. However, IAF is incorporating 5th gen technologies into the Su-30MKI through MLUs to make it better than the Su-30SM by a large margin. And Russia will initiate MLUs to make an even better version of the Su-30SM at a later date. By then, IAF will be phasing out the Su-30MKI.

FGFA will follow the same principle. VVS delivered requirements in 2000 while IAF delivered requirements in 2010-12. After FGFA is developed, the VVS may develop a slightly better version for themselves, like the Su-30SM, and by then, IAF will have initiated FGFA MLUs to make it better than the Russia version of FGFA. And Russia will initiate MLU with more advanced technologies, during the time the IAF FGFAs will begin phasing out.

 

[A Bar Brother]

Come on b787 ... stay realistic and do not believe each and every crap that is written by some certain Russian high level military or industrial leader !!

If all what was written would have become true, the RuN would already have five carrier battle groups, the T-50 would be flying operationally in the hundreds and a new strategic bomber would enter service soon. Just look at the T50 and You can be sure that not even one of them if flying by 2025 - besides the PAK-DA and the new An-124 successor for sure - nor that there will ever be two additional fifth generation fighters from Russia within that timeframe.

If I'm wrong I will immediately resign from posting here !

Again I don't want to bash the Russian aviation industry nor their ability to develop high-end top-notch types ... but not within that given time and even less in mind of the current political situation. Who should simply pay for all that ???


Deino

I don't know about the Mig-31 replacement, but Russia is capable of running two programs in parallel. If India can run two in parallel, Russia can too. But it makes sense to assume the development of the light version will happen after T-50's development is complete or nearing completion.

As for who will pay for it, the Russians depend on the export market quite a bit, unlike US or China. Countries will be much richer than they are today. So they will be able to afford spending on their military as time passes. Some of the Russian clients are oil rich states like Venezuela/Algeria and fast growing economies like Indonesia/Vietnam. S even an order book of 200 will justify the investment if it is riding on the successes of the T-50, Flankers and the Mig-29/35.

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[b787]

Come on b787 ... stay realistic and do not believe each and every crap that is written by some certain Russian high level military or industrial leader !!

Deino

i think you do not understand what i meant.

I think Russia needs a light weight fighter for two reasons
A)The export market for this type of aircraft is a source of revenue to the export oriented Russian military industry

B)the main Russian military exports are aircraft and T-50 is an aircraft with a very limited market

The type 30 engine is in the class of the F135 used on F-35, so once they have that engine flying the possibility of building a supercruising light weight fighter is there.

The most built jet fighters are single engined, F-16, MiG-21, MiG-23, therefore for Russia in order to remain an industrial power and specifically an aerospace power exports are needed .

I think that isthe way a light weight fighter will built, further more the development period of such fighter is around 6 years to have a prototype and around 10 to 15 to deploy it.
so a time frame of 2020 to have a prototype is not out of reach perhaps a 2023 is logic

The PAKDA in fact is more a luxury because this type of aircraft are not export oriented, now the heavy weight fighter is more difficult to build because these will be for Russia and are designed to fill the gaps S-500 can not fill.

For the Russian defense they need S-500s and a heavy weight fighter to down cruise missiles and stealth bombers to protect their own nuclear weapons thus they have a need.