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Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
That would at least have moved the state of the art in manned high-speed aircraft forward - it would have been a money pit too, but the tech freak in me would have given MiG a pass for the sheer coolness of it :) A Concorde-moment, but in an era of F-35s, Su-57s and J-20s the MiG-35 is just an anachronism. Hell, the Eurocanards compare favourably!
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
but by being so late to the game Sukhoi has poached prospective customers with deeper pockets
There is no competition anymore. They are all owned by the same parent company UAC. Its branding and model. Su, Mig, Yak, Il, Tu they are all UAC same for Mil and Kamov.
It's not like Lockheed and Boeing where from time to time they partner but mostly just compete. If one looses they loose. It more like GM
With the many badges under their name.
In UAC it's " you want Mig35 right this way but more the Su35 as we pass, and do take a look at the Yak 130 trainer. Right here in the show room. "
It's the return to the master plan of the state owned system.
The Design offices take the name and plant and bid there offer to the management for approval.
Where they have competition is the outside parties. F16, F15, Typhoon, Grippen and Rafale. Fighters that are in the market and out of UAC.
That said, a JF-17 counterpart was/is clearly not a credible alternative for MiG, its export potential has been shown to be pretty limited
Jf17 was never a widely offered platform and had limits I mean it was basically a custom order for Pakistan who wanted inescence a modern Mig21. There was a history for it a tripartite the Pakistan's, the U.S. and PRC. Project Saber II. But it fell apartas the U.S. imposed sanctions first on the PRC and then Pakistan. Those two took what they had, kept at it and Jf17 comes together.
I'm not sure developing a single engine fighter would be the answer for MiG. In my opinion they (or rather the Russian MoD which refused to adopt the idea) lost a BIG opportunity in 2007 with the Skat UCAV.
This class of UCAV, are not easy.
UCAV can be easy sure and there are lots of them but the SKAT(fine name in Russian terrible in translation), nEuron, and X47B sit in a class that had they entered production would be akin to a Low end stealth bomber like the F117.
And despite the US, Russia, China, Europe and Isreal no one has put them in actual serial production. Why is that? Well it's a lot of things. You need more security (See RQ170 incident) more complexity jets rather than props full stealth rather than stealthy, autonomy vs remote control I mean if it's getting inputs from Moscow that's a dead giveaway that it's there. It's not as easy as flying a Reaper-Ski over Grazny.
The Drones we are used to seeing can get away with a lot because they are in low denial areas. A drone over Afghanistan even Pakistan doesn't need the same level of antispoofing and security as one intended to penetrate peer class air defences. And the only reason you need that level of stealth is near or peer class.
The Russians chose not to fallow through as they didn't have the investment infrastructure for it. And as we saw in 2011 that kind of security is critical the RQ170 fits just in the same potential mission of penetration of enemy defenses, it may not have been armed but it was of the same concept.

Since Mig is UAC and state owned they won't feel much of a hit if their new product doesn't sell. Although it will likely be cycled into the Russian Military.
Designing a new fifth gen is not easy more so for the claims of
Right. In the context of the post, I could only think of unbuilt/future projects, so I thought it was MiG-41.
Mig-41 which basically promised a fighter right out of Stargate SG1. A low observable mach 4+ interceptor.
I mean Mig31 is impressive on paper but the Russian Military has had a hell of a time keeping those flying and up to date even now. But they want a machine that is not just faster but stealthy.
Father more a headache is how in the heck is it supposed to intercept?
The Mig25 and Mig31 are keyed to critical technologies, a high powered look down shoot down radar and long range air to air missiles. Absolutely critical to there function as at high mach 2 almost mach 3 speeds, either Mig25 nor Mig31 don't turn and burn. Unlike Flanker and Fulcrom. Foxbat and Foxhound are not dogfight aircraft. They dogfight as well as the space shuttle.
Mig41 would seem to push the speed more than it's precursors at first glance okay, but then wait if these American and European aircraft its built to intercept are low observable than how does it vector in?
It can't carry the uber long wavelength radars need, no fighter could. You would need a radar the size of a B52 for that and even then it would not see a Low observable until it was still relivtivly close. The Mig41 wouldn't have a target until it was virtually on top of any low observable.
And all this before 2025?
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is no competition anymore. They are all owned by the same parent company UAC. Its branding and model. Su, Mig, Yak, Il, Tu they are all UAC same for Mil and Kamov.
It's not like Lockheed and Boeing where from time to time they partner but mostly just compete. If one looses they loose. It more like GM
With the many badges under their name.
In UAC it's " you want Mig35 right this way but more the Su35 as we pass, and do take a look at the Yak 130 trainer. Right here in the show room. "
It's the return to the master plan of the state owned system.

Integration is nowhere near that seamless and complementary (again, I refer you to the Okhotnik as an example). This is compounded by the fact that a lot of the product palette currently still dates from before integration. And anyway, absolutely none of this affects the core problem that the MiG-35 is too late and a large chunk of its potential market is gone as a result - Venezuela, Uganda, Indonesia, Vietnam would have been ideal customers, but went for Flankers instead.

This class of UCAV, are not easy.
UCAV can be easy sure and there are lots of them but the SKAT(fine name in Russian terrible in translation), nEuron, and X47B sit in a class that had they entered production would be akin to a Low end stealth bomber like the F117.
And despite the US, Russia, China, Europe and Isreal no one has put them in actual serial production. Why is that? Well it's a lot of things. You need more security (See RQ170 incident) more complexity jets rather than props full stealth rather than stealthy, autonomy vs remote control I mean if it's getting inputs from Moscow that's a dead giveaway that it's there.

So?

All this demonstrates is why it would have been all the more important not to delay development unnecessarily and place the contract with an organization that could devote full attention and resources to these problems. Which is the opposite of what actually happened - you're making my point.

Mig-41 which basically promised a fighter right out of Stargate SG1. A low observable mach 4+ interceptor.
I mean Mig31 is impressive on paper but the Russian Military has had a hell of a time keeping those flying and up to date even now. But they want a machine that is not just faster but stealthy.

No argument from me - it would not be a sensible development. At least the money spent on it would produce a couple of technological breakthroughs (it would have to, in order to meet its requirements) which then could help solve problems in (or enable in the first place) other, more relevant projects though. What exactly does the MiG-35 accomplish (in 2018, 2003 may have been another story), other than cost money? I dare say its absence would not be noticed by either UAC or the customers which bought it (there are viable alternatives, more often than not coming from UAC's own stable).
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Mig41 would seem to push the speed more than it's precursors at first glance okay, but then wait if these American and European aircraft its built to intercept are low observable than how does it vector in?
It can't carry the uber long wavelength radars need, no fighter could. You would need a radar the size of a B52 for that and even then it would not see a Low observable until it was still relivtivly close. The Mig41 wouldn't have a target until it was virtually on top of any low observable.
And all this before 2025?
The Soviet / Russian interceptors supposed to guided by the ground radar network, and they need radars in the last 20-30 km, and at that range the stealth doesn't matter...
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Soviet / Russian interceptors supposed to guided by the ground radar network, and they need radars in the last 20-30 km, and at that range the stealth doesn't matter...
Two points
1) not true for the Mig25. If we were talking Mig21 sure. Mig25 would be vectored at first but there is a reason it's not a single seat machine. It has a WSO to man the radar. It was designed to hunt American Bombers. At its heart was a better radar. Mig31 improved on that farther with the Zaslon radar system that had a range of between 200-400km.
The aim was to hunt first American B70, but since the B70 never emerged B1. Then low flying American Bombers like B1 and B52. Who were buzzing chicken coops.
2) ground based radar is no guarantee of antistealth the one case of a shoot down of a stealth was when the F117 was in 20km of the ground based radar.
And it still had issues getting a lock.
For longer ranges you need a massive long wavelength radar. Or a radar blaring out energy that would attract HARM like teen girls to a Justin concert.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Two points
1) not true for the Mig25. If we were talking Mig21 sure. Mig25 would be vectored at first but there is a reason it's not a single seat machine. It has a WSO to man the radar. It was designed to hunt American Bombers. At its heart was a better radar. Mig31 improved on that farther with the Zaslon radar system that had a range of between 200-400km.
The aim was to hunt first American B70, but since the B70 never emerged B1. Then low flying American Bombers like B1 and B52. Who were buzzing chicken coops.
2) ground based radar is no guarantee of antistealth the one case of a shoot down of a stealth was when the F117 was in 20km of the ground based radar.
And it still had issues getting a lock.
For longer ranges you need a massive long wavelength radar. Or a radar blaring out energy that would attract HARM like teen girls to a Justin concert.

The phased array meter wavelength radars can pinpoint the target into a 2km by 2 km box at 100 nautical miles.

Means if the radar on the fighter can detect a 0.01 sqm target from 90 km then it will be able to detect any possible stealth air from 30-40 km, and if the phased array VHF radar pinpoint the fighter radar into a small spot on the sky then the weapon quality / tracking range can even bigger.

And the russian aircrafts has long range infrared detectors as well.

As I remember the new Russian jets has VHF radar receivers in the wings.
Will not give weapon quality track, but can lead the fighter into the range of the X band and IR sensors.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
30-40km. Meaning it already has to be virtually on top of the stealth to begin with.
The IRST at best gives you again 30-40km.
Again it has to be virtually on top of the target already.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I think if the March 4 MiG-41 does materialize (it's a big if) it would provide the Russians with an asymmetric weapon system which would enable them to do hit & run attacks on stealth aircraft, or hit the rearguard units like the AWACS and tanker aircraft, that someone with modern short legged US weapon systems would use. Quite a lot of AA missile weapon systems are limited to Mach 4-5 so it would make those systems mostly useless and would require the development of new (heavier) missile weapons which might have a hard time fitting into stealth fighter bays. It would also allow the Russians to more quickly redeploy their combat units across the vast Russian landscape. It don't think something like the MiG-41 is impossible. I mean how old is the SR-71 by now? If you look at the difference between its engine and a regular jet engine, the differences are minimal. Also we have materials and tooling which were not available back then. The problem is will you develop all this capability and a new engine for what will be essentially a single purpose application? Unless the Russians decide to use the same engine in some kind of drone or long distance cruise missile system. Then it would make more sense IMHO. You have to remember that the MiG-25 engine (Tumansky R-15) was originally developed for a drone (Tupolev Tu-123), so the reverse could apply this time. Or we could see a repeat of it.
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Avangard hypersonic missile systems to enter combat duty in Dombarovsky division in 2019

17 December 2018

The Avangard is a strategic intercontinental ballistic missile system equipped with a hypersonic glide vehicle

First Avangard hypersonic missile systems will enter combat duty in 2019 at the Dombarovsky missile division based in the Orenburg Region in the south Urals, Strategic Missile Force Commander Colonel-General Sergei Karakayev said in an interview with Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper.

"First complexes are planned to be put on combat duty at the missile regiment of the Dombarosky division starting next year," Karakayev said.

The Avangard is a strategic intercontinental ballistic missile system equipped with a hypersonic glide vehicle. According to open sources, the ‘breakthrough’ weapon was developed by the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building (the town of Reutov, the Moscow Region) and was tested from 2004. The glide vehicle is capable of flying at hypersonic speed in the dense layers of the atmosphere, maneuvering by its flight path and its altitude and breaching any anti-missile defense.

The new weapon was unveiled by Russian President Vladimir Putin in his State of the Nation address to the Federal Assembly on March 1. Later, the Russian leader said during his annual Q&A session on June 7 that "the Avangard system is already in the process of its manufacture and has entered its serial production and in 2019 we are planning to deliver it to the Armed Forces."

The UR-100N UTTKh (SS-19 Stiletto) is a heavy upgrade of the UR-100 missile complex developed in the Soviet Union in the 1960s by the Design Bureau-52 led by Vladimir Chelomei. It was accepted for service in 1980. Currently, Russia’s Strategic Missile Force operates 30 silo-based missiles of this type, according to open sources. The missile has a takeoff weight of about 100 tonnes and a throw weight of around 4.5 tonnes.

Initially, the UR-100N UTTKh will be the carrier for Russia’s strategic hypersonic weapon. Eventually, it will be replaced by the Sarmat ICBM.

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I think if the March 4 MiG-41 does materialize (it's a big if) it would provide the Russians with an asymmetric weapon system which would enable them to do hit & run attacks on stealth aircraft, or hit the rearguard units like the AWACS and tanker aircraft, that someone with modern short legged US weapon systems would use. Quite a lot of AA missile weapon systems are limited to Mach 4-5 so it would make those systems mostly useless and would require the development of new (heavier) missile weapons which might have a hard time fitting into stealth fighter bays. It would also allow the Russians to more quickly redeploy their combat units across the vast Russian landscape. It don't think something like the MiG-41 is impossible. I mean how old is the SR-71 by now? If you look at the difference between its engine and a regular jet engine, the differences are minimal. Also we have materials and tooling which were not available back then. The problem is will you develop all this capability and a new engine for what will be essentially a single purpose application? Unless the Russians decide to use the same engine in some kind of drone or long distance cruise missile system. Then it would make more sense IMHO. You have to remember that the MiG-25 engine (Tumansky R-15) was originally developed for a drone (Tupolev Tu-123), so the reverse could apply this time. Or we could see a repeat of it.

This AIN'T gonna happen, for starters, you have no idea have "finicky" the SR-71 is/was to operate, its a space craft, getting to Mach 3 is a technological nightmare, engaging a target at that speed is bananas crazy.....

so unfortunately is your comparison of the SR-71 engines and "regular jet engine", "minimal" differences eh???

so lets stick to the real world, and current aircraft/technology for the sake of honest discussion??

you really ought to do a little background on the SR-71, its still an other worldly aircraft from the brilliant, fertile, genious mind of Kelly Johnson!
 
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