ROCAF Indigenous Fighter Program

adeptitus said:

PRC objects to major arms export to TW, but usually not component level stuff, like the avionics from BAE for IDF C/D. I don't think the PRC would object strongly to cockpit upgrades for TW, but HMS + AAM is another story.

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Twenty years ago Israel was willing to export the Kfir to the ROCAF, I doubt the PRC would terribly object as you said, for components to refurbish 70 odd old fighters. The key to any sort of worthwhile F-5 upgrade would be making them TC-2 capable, even though they were built from Raytheon kits, its the closest thing the ROCAF has to a reliable source. AIDC DID tryto make an upgrade of the F-5E. The Tiger 2000 project was still going on until 2002 before it was cancelled, so it would be easy for AIDC to retstart this project if the F-16 Block 5-/52 doesn't go through. The upgrade would be a liability though, the the airframe is not extensively refurbished, any new F-5 upgrade will continue the ROCAF's track record of declining safety of her F-5 fleet. The only outstanding countries with a 'history' of extensive refurbishments are Israel and France, and France has never offered an extensive rehaul of American aircraft, its mostly French and Soviet aircraft. In my opinion in the event of the F-16 order falling through they should try to restart Ching Kuo production to C/D standard, but who knows what might happen. Its not as if there is anything new or ground breaking in the works domestically other than the C/D upgrades and the Tiger 200 cancellation, so that would be the only 'home-grown' choice. Like I said earlier, France has been very bold in its stance with China, who knows where that will lead.

Recently I found this image:



Detailing the development of the IDF project. I was wondering how serious were some of the earlier designs? Did any of them make it past the conceptual stage? Was there any design philosophy changes or requirements from the LCIP to the LWDF to the IDF phases?

IMO if there were other prototypes actually built, it'd have been put on display somewhere.

adeptitus said:

IMO if there were other prototypes actually built, it'd have been put on display somewhere.

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Well I was thinking of something more in the 'design' stage rather than an actual airframe or anything. Right now I'm trying to get more information on the 'XF-6' fighter program the ROCAF was in but so far I can't find anything other than it was supposed to be tailess or something. I'm not sure it simply turned into the IDF project or just influenced the IDF project.

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kliu0 said:

Around half of the IDF fleet is being upgraded to C/D standard.

The F-16s that the Taiwanese government wants the US to sell is said to replace the F-5s.

AIDC was planning to go onto a next generation fighter plane project, but its all on the drawing board. Without funding I doubt anything would happen. Perhaps its time the government quit wasting time and money on submarine procurement and designed and built more fighters. I'm sure the Orions, frigates and 4 submarines can deal with the submarine aspect of national defence.

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Lockheed Martin is really pushing the US government to allow them the sale of 66 additional F-16s to the ROCAF according to flightglobal (). Lockheed Martin seems rather desperate to squeeze the last bit of juice from the F-16 before it becomes 'obsolete'. I guess we shall see the Obama administration's Asian foriegn policy in action soon I guess.

Another option to replace the F-5Es that is, well... a bit 'out there' but still, in my opinion, viable, is the Aero L-159As, a single-seat 'multi-role' combat aircraft being sold by the Czech Republic. The Czechs ae DESPERATE to unload these aircraft and they have been for a couple of years now and they're willing to sell them for pretty cheap (about $9.6 million). There's nothing wrong with them persay but they're a very niche role. I mention them in particular because it uses more or less the same Honeywell F124 engines the Ching Kuo does. The specific variant used by the L-159A is the F124 which is simply the non-afterburning version of the F125 used by the Ching kuo which would solve a lot of logistical problems. The Fiar Grifo-L radar is theoretically BVR (specifically the AIM-120) capable and could be a candidate for the Tien Chien II given how highly customisable the L-159A is. Unlike other countries, the Czech Republic really has no real political clout and the export could be considered 'non-threatening', especially given the thin quasi-trainer/light attack/fighter line the current L-159A skirts across. Replacing the F124 engines with F125 engines could be a good 'make work' project by the government for AIDC as well a general 'refurbishment'. This would be far from the ideal situation but it would certainly be a step up from the existing aging F-5E fleet of the 737th Tactical Fighter Wing which consists of 3 squadrons... ironically enough thats around 72 aircraft which is the same amount of L-159As ever built!

If LM can sell 66 F-16s to Taiwan and another 36 to Iraq---that deal being opposed by Kuwait---I say that would be one hell of a business.

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kliu0 said:

I'm happy about any possible new fighters for Taiwan. But what about spare equipment...since the aircraft is in low-medium production, I expect the price of the spares to be expensive.

Well Obama has already allowed upgrades for the PAC II to PAC III standard for Taiwan. Who knows what will happen, but I think he'll push for the sale as the F-16 sales will create jobs in manufacturing and sales.

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Spare equipment for the F-16 probably won't be a problem. A quote from the flight global article has Lockheed Martin's Chief Executive officer saying "I think demand is obviously narrow, but there are 24 countries that fly the airplane. There could be some replenishment or replacement aircraft. It's a contained universe now on the F-16." Which basically means that there are just so many F-16s in service still (Lockheed Martin actually has a backlog of 103 aircraft orders to fill on top of any additional sales) that spare parts manufacturing would continue for a very long time. Additionally, with the introduction of the F-35 in the near future, there will begin a trickle of retired F-16s that may be used for parts or even refurbished and resold to other countries.

kliu0 said:

I'm happy about any possible new fighters for Taiwan. But what about spare equipment...since the aircraft is in low-medium production, I expect the price of the spares to be expensive.

Well Obama has already allowed upgrades for the PAC II to PAC III standard for Taiwan. Who knows what will happen, but I think he'll push for the sale as the F-16 sales will create jobs in manufacturing and sales.

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Taiwan's problem really isn't additional F-16s at this point - they're certainly nice to have, but the absolutely crucial thing is additional AMRAAMs, which the US is holding back on, making it so the ROCAF F-16 fleet can't fight at full strength (fire-and-forget BVR) for more than a single sortie on average.