ROCAF Indigenous Fighter Program

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Re: The AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo: The OTHER China's indigenous fighter

The way I think it works is the 'f' represents 'fighter' and 'ck' represent Ching Kuo, seperately that makes sense but of course the name really didn't turn out that well ;)

Uh hum... So what would happen if a substantially upgraded Ching-Kuo enters the service??

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sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I agree they need more missiles, but when the F-5s are all retired won't there be a bit of a hole in the fleet?

How's there going to be a hole? The F-5s are going to be replaced sooner or later, most likely by F-16s even though I think it's better with IDFs. IDFs as a class will replace F-5s as light fighters.

Taiwan has money to get missiles and jet of course, but I see little reason to get jets, at least as a priority. What I fear is a lack of brain and of course the politics works against Taiwan for getting missiles as demonstrated by the 1st badge of AMRAAMs.

I thought of replacing the AT-3 at first but their role as trainers are more vital and they are not as old as I thought.

F-16s can't use TC-2 and IDFs can't use AMRAAMs, but either way, both missiles are low in supply. There's no point in making your IDFs able to shoot 4 TC-2s if you cant arm them so. And sometime needs to be done to the TC-1s (Are IDFs able to use AIM-9s?) as 5km is not going to give you an edge over Aphids.....

ROCAF MUST NOT acquire a new type of fighter plane!!!!!

Do not try to go off topic or make use of foul language, please.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
How's there going to be a hole? The F-5s are going to be replaced sooner or later, most likely by F-16s even though I think it's better with IDFs. IDFs as a class will replace F-5s as light fighters.

Taiwan has money to get missiles and jet of course, but I see little reason to get jets, at least as a priority. What I fear is a lack of brain and of course the politics works against Taiwan for getting missiles as demonstrated by the 1st badge of AMRAAMs.

I thought of replacing the AT-3 at first but their role as trainers are more vital and they are not as old as I thought.

F-16s can't use TC-2 and IDFs can't use AMRAAMs, but either way, both missiles are low in supply. There's no point in making your IDFs able to shoot 4 TC-2s if you cant arm them so. And sometime needs to be done to the TC-1s (Are IDFs able to use AIM-9s?) as 5km is not going to give you an edge over Aphids.....

ROCAF MUST NOT acquire a new type of fighter plane!!!!!

Do not try to go off topic or make use of foul language, please.

I believe any deal about aquiring newer F-16s will also invariably also include the import of new AMRAAMs, its only logical. What matters though that it won't be another tiny number but something more substaintial. The same can probably be said about the F-CK-1 as well. The ROC's governments priorities in defence are all over the place right now, I'm not really surprised its aquisition system seems so out of order as well. I would personally like to see more emphasis on the C/D upgrades but I doubt there is the political will in Taipei to support indigenous development over foriegn imports
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
ROCAF cannot procure large stockpiles of AMRAAMs, because the US is unwilling to sell. Unlike the French, the US is more strict on its munitions and spares export. Which is also why the French is able to command a premium for their hardware, because they're willing to sell you many hundreds of MICA AAM's.

ROCAF procurement takes a LONG time. AT-3's were made in 1984-1990. If the ROCAF requests IDF LIFT trainers today, we might not see them built until the next decade. By the time that AT-3's are retiring, you can have the IDF trainers ready for service.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Trivia.

Not too many planes use a sliding canopy layout, like the F-22. The Ching Kuo is one of them.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
ROCAF cannot procure large stockpiles of AMRAAMs, because the US is unwilling to sell. Unlike the French, the US is more strict on its munitions and spares export. Which is also why the French is able to command a premium for their hardware, because they're willing to sell you many hundreds of MICA AAM's.

ROCAF procurement takes a LONG time. AT-3's were made in 1984-1990. If the ROCAF requests IDF LIFT trainers today, we might not see them built until the next decade. By the time that AT-3's are retiring, you can have the IDF trainers ready for service.

Importing and Exporting military hardware is always a VERY prickly issue for any company which is why so many backed out of participating in the F-CK-1. As for France, I'm a bit sceptical about the price tag. Morocco last year signed a deal with France, €100 million for armaments, MICAs and AASM 250 kg rocket bombs, assuming that half of that is for MICAs and the other half for rocket bombs for a fleet of 27 Mirage F1s, that a bit high but nothing outrageous for a short-to-medium range missile. Of course the problem is that only the Mirage 2000-5s can actually USE the MICA.

As for procurement, I would think, in such a politically fragmented country that there would be an exhausting amount of checks and balances but I'm no expert on ROCAF procurement procedure so this is just an assumption I had! AIDC is a state owned company, is procurement more TC-2s so cumbersome that even making a domestic order would be diffcult?
 

Mr T

Senior Member
How's there going to be a hole?

I meant if there were no new F-16s to replace them - because at the moment there are no new IDF's planned (just existing ones upgraded) and the F-16 sale is still being blocked by Washington. So as things right now are the F-5 will be retired without a direct replacement.

Taiwan has money to get missiles and jet of course, but I see little reason to get jets, at least as a priority.

Certainly it has the money, but it can't always buy what it wants or needs. It has to get what it can when the opportunity arises - I think adeptitus is right that the US won't let Taiwan buy up a large stockpile of missiles. Perhaps we will see another AMRAAM order in the next year or two.

Sure Taiwan can get more TC-2s - I presume that it can still get all the parts and no supply routes have been cut by foreign countries or something. If it can it should get more, especially with the expected IDF upgrades.

ROCAF MUST NOT acquire a new type of fighter plane!!!!!

Even if the French offered the Rafale?


So getting back on track to the main topic (perhaps we should save the general ROCAF discussion for another thread).

Can someone answer me a question about the IDF's engines - is the IDF able to supercruise? If not, what's its top speed without the afterburner?

Also, how critical is an engine upgrade to it remaining a useful fighter for the ROCAF? My view is that the current planned upgrades are much more important.
 
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Semi-Lobster

Junior Member


I meant if there were no new F-16s to replace them - because at the moment there are no new IDF's planned (just existing ones upgraded) and the F-16 sale is still being blocked by Washington. So as things right now are the F-5 will be retired without a direct replacement.


Sorry to continue the off topicness but what is the new upcoming Obama's administration policy on the 'Taiwan situation'

Certainly it has the money, but it can't always buy what it wants or needs. It has to get what it can when the opportunity arises - I think adeptitus is right that the US won't let Taiwan buy up a large stockpile of missiles. Perhaps we will see another AMRAAM order in the next year or two.

Sure Taiwan can get more TC-2s - I presume that it can still get all the parts and no supply routes have been cut by foreign countries or something. If it can it should get more, especially with the expected IDF upgrades.

The TC-2 were built from kits Raytheon, I wouldn't be surprised if the same stalling going on with the F-16 is happening to the TC-2.

Even if the French offered the Rafale?

That would depend IMO if France is even capable of making a good deal with the Rafale. France for the past few years has been losing tenders all over the globe, even ones that were considered 'shoe ins' like the Saudi Arabia deal were completely blown away from what seems like France bungelling the deal.

So getting back on track to the main topic (perhaps we should save the general ROCAF discussion for another thread).

Can someone answer me a question about the IDF's engines - is the IDF able to supercruise? If not, what's its top speed without the afterburner?

Also, how critical is an engine upgrade to it remaining a useful fighter for the ROCAF? My view is that the current planned upgrades are much more important.

The originally planned (and much more powerful) TFE-1042-70A had supercruise but I do not believe Honeywell F125-70/TFE1042-70 is capable of doing so. As for top speed without the afterburners, I'm not really sure.

The engine is underwhelming but the C/D variants offer a lot of new options for the F-CK-1 particuarly radar, avionics, structural enhancements and conformal fuel tanks. The root cause of many of the F-CK-1s problems though are its engines, particularly in terms of payload. At least it is getting a much deserved upgrade, which given ROCAF, may be the best it can hope for right now.
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Even if France offered the Rafale. The only country in the region who competes with Taiwan in terms of military logistics is India. Taiwan have not shown capability in taking care of their logistics so I don't think they should get a new plane.

No, fanboy =P, The IDF is not capable of supercruising. The IDF is notorious for having overly weak engines and the the top speed alone shows it. Really deserves better.
 
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