quick question about ROCAF
- Thread starter Ender Wiggin
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MIGleader said:
Here's a link to an article indicating the MoD's proposed budget (official - not a special purchase bill like last time).
I didn't see anything in there about missile purchases. But, yeah, obviously it would help if they got some extra supplies. But we'll have to see if the budget is approved first, or if the KMT throw another temper-tantrum over the fact the government wants to buy stuff. :rofl:
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
isthvan said:
I did not count the f-5 fleet in my addition, just the IDFs, f-16s, and mirage 2000s.
Funny how if this deal goes throught, taiwan might have as many planes as the mainland. Perhaps the mainland can then use this as a reason to start buying more equipment from russia on a massive scale.
Yeah...kind of funny. I personally think that it is a good idea. I mean why would the Chinese attack Taiwan if it is about one hundreth their size but they have the same amount of modern combat aircraft? But on the downside, it would make the missle shortage worse.
Speaking of missle shortage, why can't Taiwan reverse engineer the AMRAAMs that it already has? It has the technological capability. Or at least produce more Sky Swords. A nation that is as rich as Taiwan should not have to lose a war for a shortage of missles. It could easily produce the missles it needs itself. (I think)
I think that the ground attack upgrade is there for attacking Chinese beacheads and stuff. That's the feeling I got from it. A cluster bomb would be very effective against an enviroment as packed with targets as a beachead.
Lastly, I think that the F-5s should be kept around, or converted to drones. That way, they could be used as expendable platforms for firing missles at massing ships, targets on the mainland, or whatever.
Speaking of missle shortage, why can't Taiwan reverse engineer the AMRAAMs that it already has? It has the technological capability. Or at least produce more Sky Swords. A nation that is as rich as Taiwan should not have to lose a war for a shortage of missles. It could easily produce the missles it needs itself. (I think)
I think that the ground attack upgrade is there for attacking Chinese beacheads and stuff. That's the feeling I got from it. A cluster bomb would be very effective against an enviroment as packed with targets as a beachead.
Lastly, I think that the F-5s should be kept around, or converted to drones. That way, they could be used as expendable platforms for firing missles at massing ships, targets on the mainland, or whatever.
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Finn McCool said:
Taiwan's CIST makes their own BVR missile, the TC-2 (Sky Sword II). However the US refused to allow Taiwan to modify F-16's computer source code to permit use of domestic missiles.
If Taiwan reverse engineer the AIM-120, it'd violate US patents & licensing. While the US might not be able to prevent Taiwan from doing so, it'd certaintely damage future US weapon sales to Taiwan.
adeptitus said:
I know that they have the Sky Sword, but I didn't know that they couldn't alter the code. I also suspected that the ROC isn't producing its own AIM-120s because of patent laws, but I didn't really know if they applied in Taiwan and all that. So basically all that Taiwan can do is buy more AIM-120s if it wants to fire missles. It could still produce more TC-2s, which would allow its Mirages and FCK-1s to give all of the AIMs alloted to them to the F-16s. But Really, the only solution to this problem is to buy more missles. Maybe after the AIM-9x, or whatever the new missle is supposed to be, comes online they will sell the AIM-120. If you have a bunch of outdated missles lying around you might as well sell them. Of course, China wouldn't like that very much.
The_Zergling
Junior Member
Additional article regarding F-16 purchase...
Airplane Race in Taiwan Straits
Taiwan Seeks Advanced F-16s Fighters
By WENDELL MINNICK, TAIPEI
Taiwanese Air Force officials plan to ask Pentagon officials informally about the purchase of some five dozen F-16C/D Block 52 fighter jets.
The discussions will be held in Washington May 25-29, during a trip that will allow the delegation to attend military-unit reunions, including that of the legendary 14th U.S. Air Force, whose Flying Tigers served in China during World War II.
A U.S. defense source said the Taiwanese officials intend to gather information that will help them shape the self-governing island’s effort to replace its fighter fleet, which consists of 146 F-16A/Bs, 128 locally produced F-CK-1 Indigenous Defense Fighters (IDFs), 56 Mirage 2000-5s and 60 or so aging F-5 Tigers.
“Taiwan needs to modernize its fleet to counter the advanced fighters the PRC [People’s Republic of China] is fielding now,” the source said. “Even if Taiwan decides to purchase the aircraft this year, Taiwan won’t see the aircraft until 2011-2012 due to paperwork and production timeline. By that time, the IDFs will be close to 20 years old and the F-16A/Bs will be over 15 years old.”
U.S. and Taiwanese officials often exchange information in these kinds of informal meetings because of Taipei’s ambiguous diplomatic status and Washington’s desire to avoid offending Beijing.
Taiwan’s Military Spokes-man’s Office refused to comment on the planned meeting or the F-16 issue.
Any effort to buy advanced fighter jets is sure to provoke strong opinions from Beijing to Washington.
U.S. administration officials remain irritated by Taipei’s refusal to buy the eight diesel submarines, 12 P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft and several Patriot PAC-3 air defense systems offered by President George W. Bush in 2001. Taiwan’s legislature has refused to allocate money to buy them for a tangled array of political, economic and strategic reasons.
A source at F-16-maker Lockheed Martin said formal progress toward a Taiwanese purchase of the fighters would likely have to wait until Taipei and Washington decide how to handle the package of weapons that U.S. officials proposed for sale in 2001.
“ROCAF [Republic of China Air Force] planning folks are doing their job in looking down the road at their force structure and options for the future,” the source said. “I would hope the F-16 is on their list, but asking Uncle Sam at this time just doesn’t fit.”
Taiwan Opposition to Sale
There might also be opposition to buying F-16s on the Taiwanese side. This might come from the legislature’s pro-unification members, those who distrust the United States and those who fear becoming reliant on foreign weapons.
Local officials still grumble over the U.S. decision to switch diplomatic relations from Taipei to Beijing in 1979, and there are deep-seated fears the United States will abandon Taiwan during a war with China.
Chinese Opposition
China is certain to oppose the idea. On May 10, Chinese Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan demanded the United States end all military-to-military contacts with Taiwan and stop the sale of advanced weapons to the island, Beijing’s official Xinhua news agency reported.
Cao made the remarks in talks with Adm. William Fallon, U.S. Pacific Fleet commander, who was in China for a seven-day visit aimed at improving military ties between the two countries.
Washington promised Beijing in 1982 that it would reduce sales of advanced arms to Taiwan. But Taipei had already begun agitating to buy F-16s, and in 1992, the first Bush administration agreed to the sale of 150 fighters. This drew angry outbursts from Beijing, which threatened to withdraw from international arms control talks and cut cooperation with Washington at the United Nations.
China’s hard-line approach to the Taiwan issue has isolated the island in the international community. Today, only the United States is willing to provide Taiwan with advanced weapons. Previous foreign suppliers, such as France, which supplied fighters and frigates in the 1990s, have refused Taiwan’s requests for arms.
One American regional expert predicted that Beijing would complain about the sale of more F-16s, just as it would any U.S. arms sale to Taiwan.
“However, its protests would be based on increasingly shaky ground given the nature of its military build-up opposite Taiwan,” said Mark Stokes, who directs the U.S.-Taiwan Enterprise Foundation and who once ran the U.S. defense secretary’s China and Taiwan office.
“The PRC has and will protest any U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, whether it’s a major program or even a small spare parts package, and cite it as a ‘violation’ of the 1982 Communiqué, which was a statement of policy under the Reagan administration that called for the gradual reduction of U.S. arms sales to Taiwan,” Stokes said.
“However, this Reagan administration commitment in the 1982 Communiqué was contingent upon Beijing’s provision of an atmosphere conducive to such a reduction. There is a direct linkage between the nature of the threat that the PRC poses to Taiwan and arms sales.”
Reshaping Fighter Fleet
Any information offered by U.S. officials will help Taiwanese defense officials decide how to reshape their fighter fleet.
F-CK-1-maker Aerospace and Industrial Development Corp. is developing a proposed upgrade called Hsing Shing (Soaring Upgrade), which would allow the Taiwan-built planes to carry better avionics, new weapons, electronic-warfare gear and an extra 771 kilograms of fuel.
The firm is wrapping up work on two prototypes, but the military may simply decide to retire the planes in the next five or six years.
The military also may mothball some of its Dassault Mirage 2000-5s, for which it paid an estimated $3.8 billion in 1992. It is experimenting with a vacuum-packaging method that could protect the fighters from the salty climate yet allow them to be quickly readied for service.
Taiwan is preparing to retire its F-5 Tigers.
My thoughts on this? Personally, not a chance in hell it'll happen. The F-16 deal, I mean.
Well first off, the Mirage, F-CK-1, and F-16 all use different air to air missiles, as far as I know, none of them overlap at all. Micas and R-550 Magics for the Mirage fleet, TC-1s and 2s for the F-CK-1s, and AIM-7s, AIM-9s, and AIM-120s for the F-16s...
China wouldn't like ANY arms sales... although there is indeed a difference of scale for different purchases. However I think it's safe to say that nothing Taiwan does that will strengthen the military is going to make the Chinese happy.
Airplane Race in Taiwan Straits
Taiwan Seeks Advanced F-16s Fighters
By WENDELL MINNICK, TAIPEI
Taiwanese Air Force officials plan to ask Pentagon officials informally about the purchase of some five dozen F-16C/D Block 52 fighter jets.
The discussions will be held in Washington May 25-29, during a trip that will allow the delegation to attend military-unit reunions, including that of the legendary 14th U.S. Air Force, whose Flying Tigers served in China during World War II.
A U.S. defense source said the Taiwanese officials intend to gather information that will help them shape the self-governing island’s effort to replace its fighter fleet, which consists of 146 F-16A/Bs, 128 locally produced F-CK-1 Indigenous Defense Fighters (IDFs), 56 Mirage 2000-5s and 60 or so aging F-5 Tigers.
“Taiwan needs to modernize its fleet to counter the advanced fighters the PRC [People’s Republic of China] is fielding now,” the source said. “Even if Taiwan decides to purchase the aircraft this year, Taiwan won’t see the aircraft until 2011-2012 due to paperwork and production timeline. By that time, the IDFs will be close to 20 years old and the F-16A/Bs will be over 15 years old.”
U.S. and Taiwanese officials often exchange information in these kinds of informal meetings because of Taipei’s ambiguous diplomatic status and Washington’s desire to avoid offending Beijing.
Taiwan’s Military Spokes-man’s Office refused to comment on the planned meeting or the F-16 issue.
Any effort to buy advanced fighter jets is sure to provoke strong opinions from Beijing to Washington.
U.S. administration officials remain irritated by Taipei’s refusal to buy the eight diesel submarines, 12 P-3 Orion maritime patrol aircraft and several Patriot PAC-3 air defense systems offered by President George W. Bush in 2001. Taiwan’s legislature has refused to allocate money to buy them for a tangled array of political, economic and strategic reasons.
A source at F-16-maker Lockheed Martin said formal progress toward a Taiwanese purchase of the fighters would likely have to wait until Taipei and Washington decide how to handle the package of weapons that U.S. officials proposed for sale in 2001.
“ROCAF [Republic of China Air Force] planning folks are doing their job in looking down the road at their force structure and options for the future,” the source said. “I would hope the F-16 is on their list, but asking Uncle Sam at this time just doesn’t fit.”
Taiwan Opposition to Sale
There might also be opposition to buying F-16s on the Taiwanese side. This might come from the legislature’s pro-unification members, those who distrust the United States and those who fear becoming reliant on foreign weapons.
Local officials still grumble over the U.S. decision to switch diplomatic relations from Taipei to Beijing in 1979, and there are deep-seated fears the United States will abandon Taiwan during a war with China.
Chinese Opposition
China is certain to oppose the idea. On May 10, Chinese Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan demanded the United States end all military-to-military contacts with Taiwan and stop the sale of advanced weapons to the island, Beijing’s official Xinhua news agency reported.
Cao made the remarks in talks with Adm. William Fallon, U.S. Pacific Fleet commander, who was in China for a seven-day visit aimed at improving military ties between the two countries.
Washington promised Beijing in 1982 that it would reduce sales of advanced arms to Taiwan. But Taipei had already begun agitating to buy F-16s, and in 1992, the first Bush administration agreed to the sale of 150 fighters. This drew angry outbursts from Beijing, which threatened to withdraw from international arms control talks and cut cooperation with Washington at the United Nations.
China’s hard-line approach to the Taiwan issue has isolated the island in the international community. Today, only the United States is willing to provide Taiwan with advanced weapons. Previous foreign suppliers, such as France, which supplied fighters and frigates in the 1990s, have refused Taiwan’s requests for arms.
One American regional expert predicted that Beijing would complain about the sale of more F-16s, just as it would any U.S. arms sale to Taiwan.
“However, its protests would be based on increasingly shaky ground given the nature of its military build-up opposite Taiwan,” said Mark Stokes, who directs the U.S.-Taiwan Enterprise Foundation and who once ran the U.S. defense secretary’s China and Taiwan office.
“The PRC has and will protest any U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, whether it’s a major program or even a small spare parts package, and cite it as a ‘violation’ of the 1982 Communiqué, which was a statement of policy under the Reagan administration that called for the gradual reduction of U.S. arms sales to Taiwan,” Stokes said.
“However, this Reagan administration commitment in the 1982 Communiqué was contingent upon Beijing’s provision of an atmosphere conducive to such a reduction. There is a direct linkage between the nature of the threat that the PRC poses to Taiwan and arms sales.”
Reshaping Fighter Fleet
Any information offered by U.S. officials will help Taiwanese defense officials decide how to reshape their fighter fleet.
F-CK-1-maker Aerospace and Industrial Development Corp. is developing a proposed upgrade called Hsing Shing (Soaring Upgrade), which would allow the Taiwan-built planes to carry better avionics, new weapons, electronic-warfare gear and an extra 771 kilograms of fuel.
The firm is wrapping up work on two prototypes, but the military may simply decide to retire the planes in the next five or six years.
The military also may mothball some of its Dassault Mirage 2000-5s, for which it paid an estimated $3.8 billion in 1992. It is experimenting with a vacuum-packaging method that could protect the fighters from the salty climate yet allow them to be quickly readied for service.
Taiwan is preparing to retire its F-5 Tigers.
My thoughts on this? Personally, not a chance in hell it'll happen. The F-16 deal, I mean.
Well first off, the Mirage, F-CK-1, and F-16 all use different air to air missiles, as far as I know, none of them overlap at all. Micas and R-550 Magics for the Mirage fleet, TC-1s and 2s for the F-CK-1s, and AIM-7s, AIM-9s, and AIM-120s for the F-16s...
China wouldn't like ANY arms sales... although there is indeed a difference of scale for different purchases. However I think it's safe to say that nothing Taiwan does that will strengthen the military is going to make the Chinese happy.
Re the F-16C/Ds: I really don't understand why they don't go for the Rafale instead, it seems better suited to there needs and will be able to accept a wide range of missiles insluding the AMRAAM, MICA and if they buy the upgrade, the Meteor when it comes out. Plus it is truly swing role and out performs the F-16 in every respect(?). And to top it all off, France must be desperate to sell it.
The_Zergling
Junior Member
Well, I would love to see Rafales in the ROCAF. However, my dream probably won't come true for several reasons. For one thing there's probably no chance of France ever selling any military equipment to Taiwan ever again. Next off it simply makes more sense logistic and equipment-wise to buy F-16s, you already have pilots and crews trained on it as well as more spare parts. While it's true that Taiwan has enough Micas and Magics to split between Mirages and Rafales, other parts such as avionics or engines and what not probably aren't compatible.
Now if the French lowered the price of the Rafale to something similiar to the F-16 then it might be worth it, but I don't see that happening either. It's arguably at least half a generation above the F-16, so I don't see the price lowering anytime soon, unless Dassault loses any common sense.
Basically in a nutshell, the Rafale is too expensive, and there's no way France is giong to piss of China like that.
Now if the French lowered the price of the Rafale to something similiar to the F-16 then it might be worth it, but I don't see that happening either. It's arguably at least half a generation above the F-16, so I don't see the price lowering anytime soon, unless Dassault loses any common sense.
Basically in a nutshell, the Rafale is too expensive, and there's no way France is giong to piss of China like that.
Finn McCool said:
Attacking beachheads!? If they wanted to waste planes that way it is their perogative, but I would not advise it. Cheaper and more effective to buy helicopters or rocket artillery... and more effective, considering size of Taiwan. Over the straits and massing points make more sense, but that of course has strategic problems of its own.
Having more planes in Taiwan is probably not a good idea. Pilot problems, geographical limitations, and so on. Much better I think to buy more missiles and perhaps replace older planes, and to of course upgrade existing planes and training.
To Zergling: Agree on all counts. Rafale is basically impossibility... it is a bit like aslking, why does not Taiwan buy Su-37?