quick question about ROCAF

Cool, but that's trying to work around weaknesses rather than rectify them. Maybe the skySword 2 is the damp squid it's sometimes thought to be, but considering the poor RWRs/situational awareness of PLAN J-8s, PLAAF J-7s. A-5s etc, it should still be a valuable asset. When facing the sheer numbers of PLAAF aircraft, the Ching Kuo's arsenal of SkySword 2s are going to be used up within a couple of weeks (?) leaving them far less effective - there would be few things worse (from a ROCAF perspective) than having nearly half of your available fighters without BVR capability because of something as avoidable as running out of missiles.

No argument there. I also believe that if Taiwan is serious about surviving an invasion by China it must buy (or build) more air to air missiles, specifically AMRAAMs and TC-2s, which are obviously much more useful than SARH missiles like the Sparrow.

And I have the feeling that missile stockpiles wouldn't last for weeks. Definitely gone in a few days. In that situation Taiwanese pilots would probably unleash as many (decent) shots off as possible, expecting to get knocked out of the sky by a seemingly unlimited barrage of Chinese AAMs... and if a fighter survived, in all likelihood the pilot would probably just quickly land and reload, scramble, and fire again. Basically a mobile missile platform more than anything else, I wouldn't expect dogfighting to be in the best interests of Taiwan survival.

Can any one inform me why Taiwan discontinued its indegenious fighter plane plan after IDF? I read news saying that the company used to produce IDF now can only barely run the business. Because their only business now is repair those IDFs, many of their technians have left Taiwan. Some of them even went to China and Korea for jobs, and they helped Korean to build their first advance T-50 jet trainer.

To me, it sounds just absurd. When IDF first came out, it is probably the best fight plane Asian country ever produced by then. Look at mainland China then, their best were just J-8, basically an enlarged version of J-7. The IDF programs show how capable of Taiwan's aviation industry was. But after twenty years, China now is capable of designing and producing advance planes such as J-10, J-11, and JF-17. Look at Taiwan, they are capable of, ... nothing now. Does it make more sense for Taiwan to buy than produce themself? It is even harder to buy now under China's consistent pressure.

The_Zergling said:

No argument there. I also believe that if Taiwan is serious about surviving an invasion by China it must buy (or build) more air to air missiles, specifically AMRAAMs and TC-2s, which are obviously much more useful than SARH missiles like the Sparrow.

And I have the feeling that missile stockpiles wouldn't last for weeks. Definitely gone in a few days. In that situation Taiwanese pilots would probably unleash as many (decent) shots off as possible, expecting to get knocked out of the sky by a seemingly unlimited barrage of Chinese AAMs... and if a fighter survived, in all likelihood the pilot would probably just quickly land and reload, scramble, and fire again. Basically a mobile missile platform more than anything else, I wouldn't expect dogfighting to be in the best interests of Taiwan survival.

Click to expand...

If you are a Taiwanese Ching Kuo and you know that the four TC-2 missiles hanging off your fighter are the only four you'll get, then you are probably going to be retecent to use them, even when faced with situations that would be a certain kill in training scenarios. IMO. Missile shortages are bad for the air force on several levels.

only the M2k5s seem to be adequately equipped with reloads.

EDIT : Added information regarding indigenious programs

Actually I'd argue the opposite. If I had 4 TC-2s I'd fire them off as soon as I was fairly confident of a kill, because I wouldn't expect to make it back to base.

Missile shortages are a BIG problem for the ROCAF not just in wartime, but in peacetime as well. I'd assume most of the pilots have probably never even fired a missile in real life, only in simulations, which is VERY bad.

To the extent of my knowledge, shortly after Taiwan rolled out the F-CK-1, the F-16 was FINALLY okayed, hence the discontinuation of the IDF. Realistically speaking, Taiwan shouldn't have too much difficulty buying equipment from the US since arguably it's all to maintain the status quo. (What with China's recent technological advances) If it ever reaches a point where Taiwan can't buy fighters from the US anymore, then they're pretty much screwed anyway, because this pretty much alludes the US has left Taiwan out to dry.

Taiwan producing its own fighters doesn't really make sense today given the lack of a real export market due to Chinese pressure. You need large numbers to really justify a domestic fighter... at least it's easier to justify, that is.

It is impossible to predict how under combat conditions pilots will react to so limited amount of missiles, especially since the Chinese had likely kept them at high alert state of nervous tension for some time. Some may panick, others may wait until it's too late, others may do their jobs well... bottom line, such a limited stock is unnecessarily dangerous, and let's leave it at that.

I also find the ground attack role a bit of odd. To do that you want to have either surprise or air superiority. Surprise... let's say Taiwan will be very silly to sneak-attack China except under some very rare cercumstances. Air-superiority - only useful in the straits, flying missions over China is a very good way to quickly lose that superiority. Seems like they just say to themselves, well, we can't win, might as well make something of them... Makes you wonder why they don't just build more sky swords... maybe it's a bad missile... or maybe they need components they can't make or import... or maybe they had a much larger stock than reported... hell, I don't know.

Yes, I was wondering about that too. The article stated that the targets being practiced on were simulated Chinese COASTAL targets, and not say, Chinese naval vessels. This doesn't make much sense to me either, but then again it's probable the training is similiar, but I can't find much more information on this yet. I don't know if they were dumb-bomb exercises, or simulation using AGM-84s, or what...

Not sure if this article has already been posted:
===================================

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - APRIL 19, 2006

Taiwan to evaluate two aircraft for fighter upgrade
WENDELL MINNICK JDW Correspondent
Taipei

· Taiwan's Aerospace Industrial Development Corp is nearing completion of the second phase of its three-part programme to upgrade the locally developed IDF fighter · The upgrade programme, if approved, would extend the aircraft's range and improve its lethality

Taiwan is preparing to evaluate two prototype aircraft being produced by the locally based Aerospace Industrial Development Corp (AIDC). Its aim is to offer an upgrade to the F-CK-1A/B Ching-Kuo Indigenous Defence Fighter (IDF).
The upgrade, known as the Hsing Shing (Soaring Upgrade) programme, is designed to extend the aircraft's range and endurance.
Both were intentionally limited under the US technology transfer programme that was crucial to the IDF's development in the 1980s.
"We are preparing for ground tests. We only manufactured two prototypes. If everything goes well we can put it in production after the air force approves the prototypes. To date we have satisfied all milestones and are pursuing the completion of all prototype aircraft," Tao-yu Sun, AIDC Chairman and Chief Operating Officer, told Jane's.
The upgrade allows the IDF to carry an additional 771 kg of fuel and includes an improved avionics suite, retrofitted electronic-warfare capabilities and new weapon systems.
The landing gear is strengthened to accommodate the added fuel and payload, but a plan to include dielectric radar-absorbing properties for a stealthy fuselage was dropped due to concerns over weight.
The three-phase programme was launched in 2001 and recently saw completion of its second phase. The first phase, conducted with the military-run Chung Shan Institute of Science and Technology, involved increasing the number of Tien Chien 2 (Sky Sword 2) air-to-air missiles from two to four, as well as integrating the new Tien Chien 2A anti-radiation missile and new Wan Chien (Ten Thousand Swords) cluster bomb. Additional modifications were made in the deployment of the Ching Yun fuel-air bomb and Hsiung Feng (Brave Wind) anti-ship missile.
The second phase involved upgraded mission computers, which were enhanced from 16 bit to 32 bit; electronic counter countermeasures; electronic warfare systems; an advanced 'identification friend or foe' system; and terrain-following and radar improvements.
Phase three will involve ground and air testing, with service entry scheduled for 2010 if the programme is approved.
AIDC produced 130 IDFs during the 1980s to replace Taiwan's ageing Lockheed F-104s and Northrop F-5s.
Taiwan is seeking to upgrade its Indigenous Defence Fighters such as this F-CK-1B Ching-Kuo carrying the Wan Chien (Ten Thousand Swords) cluster bomb(Source: Jane's)

© 2006 Jane's Information Group

This is from yahoo news today. However seeing how the current arms bill is still in limbo, I wouldn't put too much faith in a quick purchase:
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Taiwan mulls buying 60 US F-16 fighters: report

Tue May 16, 2:52 AM ET

TAIPEI (AFP) - Taiwan is considering buying 60 US-made F-16 fighter jets to upgrade its aging air force fleet and counter what it perceives as a growing military threat from China, a report has said.

The acquisition of the advanced model F-16C/D Block 52 fighter jets would be discussed during talks in Washington on May 25-29 between the two countries, the US-based weekly Defense News quoted a US defense source as reporting.

Taiwan's air force consists of 146 less sophisticated F-16A/B fighters, 128 locally produced Indigenous Defense Fighters (IDFs), 56 French-made Mirage 2000-5s and 60 or so aging F-5 Tigers.

"Taiwan needs to modernize its fleet to counter the advanced fighters the PRC (People's Republic of China) is fielding now," the source said.

"Even if Taiwan decides to purchase the aircraft this year, Taiwan won't see the aircraft until 2011-2012 due to paperwork and production timeline. By that time, the IDFs will be close to 20 years old and the F-16A/Bs will be over 15 years old."

Taiwan's defense ministry declined to comment on the report.

But a source at F-16 maker Lockheed Martin said formal progress toward a Taiwanese purchase of the fighters would likely have to wait until Taipei decides on a weapons package that the United States proposed for sale in 2001.

Taiwan's opposition parties have blocked the 10-billion-dollar arms purchase bill even though the ruling party has scaled it down from 19 billion dollars.

The bill, proposed by the defense ministry, has yet to win approval by the procedure committee of the opposition-controlled parliament, a necessary step before it can be heard in the full house.

The bill calls for the purchase of eight conventional submarines, 12 P-3C submarine-hunting aircraft, and six PAC-3 Patriot anti-missile systems.

China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan should it move towards formal independence, prompting the island to seek more advanced weaponry.

China announced in March its military budget for this year would rise 14.7 percent to 35 billion dollars, the latest in a series of double-digit annual increases dating back to the early 1990s.

A
Pentagon report last year estimated that China's defense spending was two to three times the publicly announced figure and that the cross-strait military balance was tipping in Beijing's favor.

Intersing, about the new Ching Kuos, does that mean existing planes will be given the fuasalageu upgrade, or only new production?

The f-16 deal is rediculous. Taiwan just recently recieved an upgrade to its existing fleet of f-16A/Bs. With the new Ching kuo upgrade, taiwan should have around 330 modern, frontline fighters. China only has 370-380 fighters of the fourth generation, spread over a country with 270x the area. How can that make sense?

Besides, all the f-16s in the world are useless if taiwan does not buy more AMRAAMs. I hope they are thinking of including the missle in the aquisitions packet.