quick question about ROCAF

I think the ROCAF could improve in the following ways-

1. Better protection. It needs to be able to survive an unexpected first strike.

2. More SAMs. They can live on, even if the fighters are shot down. And they don't have any fuel limitations, etc. Plus, you don't have to train a SAM operator as much as a pilot.

3. Obviously, more missles. If they can't get any more AMRAMMs, make some more Skyswords.

The_Zergling said:

Hmm? I can't really comprehend what part you are referring to as "the point". If you're saying in terms of improving cross-strait relations then obviously any weapons on (either side) won't help tensions much.

Now if you're talking strictly military-wise, there are limits to how many aircraft can effectively be deployed in a region, especially airspace as limited as the Taiwan Strait. (And it's not like Taiwan is rolling in cash either)

From a ROCAF perspective, more aircraft aren't needed (for now), some legitimate needs that must be addressed are more air to air missiles, as well as an improvement in withstanding a first strike.

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My point is basically the second paragraph, yes. Airspace limitation (hence I sited 'geography'), and cash (hence I sited 'economy'). Sorry, sometimes my English is most unclear. I wasn't really thinking of the political situation, no.


Also, it is my understanding that at present ROCAF already has quite good survival after first strike, with good drills in secondary runways, many and dispersed (as much as is possible on so small an island) reinforced hangars, and so on. Probably more missiles would be what is desperately at this point needed.

A serious thing that they should do is get their Ching Kuo fighters and if possible the Mirages wired to fire AMRAAM so that if there is a war, and it lasts more than a week, they can use emergency AMRAAM supplies from US.

Does anyone know how many Skysword II missiles they have and whether the Ching kuo can fire MICA or AMRAAM as an alturnative?

planeman said:

A serious thing that they should do is get their Ching Kuo fighters and if possible the Mirages wired to fire AMRAAM so that if there is a war, and it lasts more than a week, they can use emergency AMRAAM supplies from US.

Does anyone know how many Skysword II missiles they have and whether the Ching kuo can fire MICA or AMRAAM as an alturnative?

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God, depending on the wiring standards Sky-sword followed, it would take more or less amount of work to get either, but anyway it will be a whole lot of work... that's one problem with the ROCAF and the PLAAF to some extent... many types of fighters, many types of mutually incompatible missiles. It's of course not just the wiring, but also to provide guidance, and so on.

EDIT : Updated to reflect corrected numbers

Medium range AAM:
AIM-7M : ~900
TC-2 (Sky Sword 2): ~300
AIM-120C : 120
MICA : 960 ~ 1200(exact number is classified, as well as the ratio between radar/IR homing)

Short range AAM:
TC-1 (Sky Sword 1) : 300+ (articles I found stated the number as "first batch, so perhaps more have been produced)
AIM-9M : ~1000
AIM-9S : 200 (Used on the AH-1W)
Magic II: 480~600(again, exact inventory is apparently classified)

SAMs :
~600 RIM-7 Sparrows used by Sky Guard SAM units for base defense, which "might" be compatible with fighters.

In addition, there should be a respectable amount of AIM-9P3/4s left over from the F-5 era...

I'll update the SAM list as I get more information...

Who wants to do a calc on how many sortie and on typical missions they can fly, and in what mixes? I am not nearly well enough informed in the mission/ distribution of ROCAF to do a good job, so.

Still, in any case, there are about 5,000 missiles altogether, which isn't too bad.

global security, if i remember correctly, states taiwan operates 6 batteries of sky bow sam and 3 batteries of patriot sam. I would imagine sky bow batteries follow the numbers of patriot ones, so some 6-8 launchers per battery. In addition to that there are 20 batteries of hawk sam - some 6 launchers per battery.

As for the sortie rate info, no one can really know. USAF could sustain some 2 sorties per day for most aircraft in the opening days of OEF. I would assume an one day surge for pin point short range interception of enemy planes could go up to 4 sorties, for that one day. In ideal circumstances, of course, where the airbase is not under attack and has not been damaged.

But that's all assuming they're sticking to rules. Checkups being done before every flight. Realistically though, if its life or death battle, i imagine it could end up literally being planes landing just for pit stops - new fuel and new weapons, before going back up in the air. It wouldn't be surprising if they start falling out of the skies on their own on the second day, though.

Okay, I got some additional information regarding ROC SAMs...

Basically for Taiwan, (at least when missle batteries were under ROC Army Missile Command Control) a 1:3 missile basic load was used...

One basic load consists of a launcher plus the number of ready to launch missiles on each launcher, generally they also have 3 more basic loads ready to be reloaded in quick succession on the launchers.

The exception is the PAC-2 batteries, which are a 3 battery unit, each with 6 launcher units, each launcher has 4 ready to launch missiles in boxes. So 3 batteries have 72 ready to launch missiles, however only 200 PAC-2 missile were ordered and delivered. The debated arms budget includes additional missiles as well.

Regarding other mid/long range SAM units in ROCA Missile Command (now under ROCAF control) :

18-20 I-HAWK batteries (each with 4-6 launchers, each launcher has 3 ready to launch missiles)

6 TK-1/2 batteries(using both fixed hardened silo launchers and mobile launchers), ~400 TK-1 and ~400 TK-2

In addition, I recall there were 6 batteries of Sky Guard SAMs that combined RIM-7Fs and 35mm AAA. I think Sky Guard had 400~600 Sparrows, I'm not sure about the exact figure.

Also Taiwan has 74 Avenger units with around 1299 Stingers (sold in 1996). And around 1200 Stinger DMS with 116 launchers (sold in 1998 and in 1996).

The_Zergling said:

Medium range AAM:

TC-2 (Sky Sword 2): ~300

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Considering there are around 130 Ching Kuo aircraft in service, that's barely 2 missiles per airframe. A typical combat load of Sky Sword 2s is two or four missiles. That's a shortage of missiles IMO.

planeman said:

Considering there are around 130 Ching Kuo aircraft in service, that's barely 2 missiles per airframe. A typical combat load of Sky Sword 2s is two or four missiles. That's a shortage of missiles IMO.

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Indeed. Which makes a recent exercise in which F-CK-1s were practicing precision ground strikes even more important in this light, I would expect several squadrons to be used in a dedicated ground strike role.

I can provide a line by line translation if someone really wants me to, but personally I dont' think it's necessary. Basically it says that there has been more emphasis on the IDF's ground strike role recently, in fact being as capable as the F-16.

決戰境外　IDF模擬炸射大陸東南沿海　不輸F16
2006/05/10 11:31

記者陳東龍、張緯中／台北報導

台美關係微妙，原先合作的防守架構，也正在悄悄轉變，台灣走自己的路‧東森新聞曾獨家披露東引島設置雄二飛彈的消息，現在更獨家掌握，原本負擔空防的IDF戰機，最近曾經多次模擬對大陸沿海地區空對地攻擊演練。

決戰境外戰略構想提出三年，一直是紙上談兵，但是今年突然動作積極，空軍駐防台南第443聯隊的IDF經國號戰機，原本是空對空防守任務，近日卻已經多次模擬演練，高難度空對地攻擊科目，目標是大陸東南沿海解放軍各重要軍事基地，這是繼前次東森獨家披露，東引島雄二飛彈箝制閩江口後的另一個軍事指標。

今年開始，IDF戰機飛行員已經多次在澎湖及台東進行對地與對海的炸射演練，據透露，炸射的準確度也不輸給F16戰機。

此外，中科院研製的天劍二A型反輻射飛彈，將要在近期進行戰測，這種反輻射飛彈，是由空對空的天劍二型加以修改而來的新式飛彈。

空軍內部將這個測試計劃定名為翔昇計劃，總經費約新台幣11億元，主要目標是讓IDF戰機，具備400海浬低空作戰半徑的優勢，一旦測試計劃完成，IDF戰機將對中共東南沿海的軍事基地產生嚇阻效果，達到決戰境外的目的。