QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Blitz, it's not as complicated as you might think. First for your fire control system what you need is a range finder and a ballistic calculator. The FCS of the XM29 and M25 are meant to add more features and have built in Zoom and IR vission modes. This makes them more like a one peice Solder digitalization kit then just a weapon. But if you take away the digital zoom and vision modes cut it down to a ballistic laser range finder, a calculator with preprogramed ballistics tables of ranges for preprogramed round options to do the trigonometry, Balance sensor to tell the system where it stands in relation to the desired angle and a simple interface to show the user to in high low and normal light conditions operate the system then you Can shrink it off the top of the system and make it far more manageable. Already there are 40mm sighting system in the market place, Wilcox RAAM for example.

next step is to integrate a interface to allow the user to program the shell with the desired range. Making the shell programmable is already established if you have a OICW program scaling it to a larger shell actually makes it easier. What you need is a is a system that allows you to range the enemy select from a preprogrammed option of rounds ballistics table's and in the case of a smart round tell it when to explode.
Most if not all of this is already in the works.
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This seems rather complex when described but to the end user what it means is that there weapon lets say a M4A1 with a M320 would have mounted on side of the system via the Grenade launcher's Mil std 1913 rail interface. The system would powered by lithium ion CR123 batteries would be a little under 2 pounds and probably no bigger then 6inchs long by 3 inches wide by 4 inches high. The interface would likely be a USB cable port. A LCD screen, a switch that allows the system to be cycled through it's modes such as diagnostic, power save, ammo type selection, smart round. A lasing button a lock button to tell it that's what you want to kill, and two buttons, one to reduce the programmed range for airburst one to increase it. A display system probably LCD that lets the operator select his round's ballistic data, what range he has lased and what he is telling the airburst to explode at. Then a sight to he can aim and line up on target this could be as simple as a set of green and red LEDs like the F2000's system or a reflex optic on a mechanical gimbal.
User would select his round lets say for conventional mode a M441 HE grenade. He lases the target lowers the range desired to attack by increments of meters. The calculator does the trig tells him to aim up by a set angle. When he is on target the sight turns green he pulls the trigger on the launcher. The round archs into the target.
For airburst he loads a airburst round sets the system, lases tells the system to explode a meter above the ground 2 meters behind the target. The computer tells the round by Wi-Fi, the computer does the trig tells him where to aim he lines up and pulls the trigger and ruins someone's day.
The key advantages of the M25 and ZH05 is the flat trajectory. It allows longer ranges and more linear target attack. The key advantage of the 40mm is the wider range of rounds the established logistics and the higher explosive power. Both have advantages in some situations over the other. A flat trajectory for example might be better on targets in a building firing from Windows. Well the arching fire of the 40mm might work better on targets behind a wall. There is also work on 40x46mm UAV rounds and Self guided 40mm rounds.

The biggest challenge is not with the FCS or weight, but ballistics.

The flatter trajectory is key, because the small comparative charge of the 40mm means it has to be aimed almost like a mortar to get a medium to long range shot off.

Any lazer or scope only has a limited LoS, and the whole package becomes effectively redundant if you have to elevate the barrel such that you loose LoS with the scope/laser.

As such, a programmable 40mm is either going to have to accept a fraction of the effective range of the round, or need so,e very complex work around, which will add weight, cost and complexity to the whole system.
 

no_name

Colonel
I remember reading before that the ZH-05 is designed to be able to aim and fire with scope only without the ballistic computer (which is a slot on component) if necessary. Maybe the 20mm grenade with flatter trajectory is also meant to be advantageous in this situation, whereas it would be difficult to do so with 40mm?

Though should autonomous vehicles become more mature maybe it will be good to arm it with 40mm grenades besides a machine gun? And if recoil is not an issue for the machine supports you can then make the 40mm higher powered to flatten out its trajectory?
 
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shen

Senior Member
let's not forget the point of the original OIWS, that rifle plus 40mm grenade launcher and FCS combo is going to be heavier and awkward to handle due to poor weight distribution, compare to an integrated solution.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I remember reading before that the ZH-05 is designed to be able to aim and fire with scope only without the ballistic computer (which is a slot on component) if necessary. Maybe the 20mm grenade with flatter trajectory is also meant to be advantageous in this situation, whereas it would be difficult to do so with 40mm?

Where did you read that?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
let's not forget the point of the original OIWS, that rifle plus 40mm grenade launcher and FCS combo is going to be heavier and awkward to handle due to poor weight distribution, compare to an integrated solution.

True, but a soldier (grenadier in platoon element) can always adapt to it with lots of practice and FTX (field training exercises). No different than a soldier switching from firing and carrying an assault rifle to machine gun.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
let's not forget the point of the original OIWS, that rifle plus 40mm grenade launcher and FCS combo is going to be heavier and awkward to handle due to poor weight distribution, compare to an integrated solution.

No the OICW was intended to offer a semiautomatic magazine feed repeater grenade launcher with smart functions intended to create a all in one instant digital soldier. Basically the concept was ripped right from the movie Aliens. However at the time of its introduction the end result was way to heavy. The FCS of 2001 on the M29 was a monster but then remember that as time as gone by computer systems have improved and continued to do so shrinking the systems and by breaking of elements it also made it easier to develop. Advanced fire control systems now are mush smaller. Just look at the Tracking Point AR series. The original Land warrior program projected a rifle that fired around corners, took digital video, could designate targets and see in the dark based on a M4 carbine with a 20 pound sighting system that had slow and poor resolution. Tracking point FSC mated to a AR platform have already done all of those with high res images in real time and at a far more manageable weight.
Computer technology progressed making the argument obsolete by 2012.

Generally speaking all smart grenade launchers can fire in dumb mode. Its a emergency fall back.

Next like I said there are some times when the flat trajectory is best wolf. But I think you missed part of my description. In the case of most 40mm FCS systems the user will range the target. Then the computer will calculate the needed angle of attack. The system doesn't need to keep a continuous lasing for a smart or conventional round the solution is already ploted.
As to the smart guided round that can be done with a second operator painting the target. Like a UAV or UGV or a soldier with a laser pointer.
 

no_name

Colonel
Where did you read that?

I can't find it right now. Apparently though I think the ballistic computer is actually not on the rifle but fitted separately on the soldier connected by wire to the rifle, but that if necessary the rifle can fire independently of the computer. I guess this means in a breakdown you don't have to lug useless weight and bulk on your rifle.

A previous post already explained some of the reason for going with 20mm bolt feed grenade launchers, note that this decision was made after field testing feedback from active service soldiers:

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/arm...-heavy-20-mm-air-burst-5-5494.html#post270644

It also says that the weapon weighs 4.27kg, by comparison a type 56 assault weighs 4.03kg. Unless exoskeleton tech is sufficiently developed I think it is advantageous to keep weight down.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Because it is a combination weapon made of what is in essence two full sized rifles the weapons weight quickly became a issue in all configurations based around the launcher/Rifle over under set up. The French cancelled there attempt. The South Africans never bothered to combine the two, the South Koreans went with a straight pull bolt action, the US broke ours into the XM8 (cancelled) and the M25 punisher and the PLA it seems dropped the repeater action. Some have speculated that if the carbine unit on such were replaced with a lighter PDW like the HK MP7A1 it might have been more reasonable in weight. What ever the case, not everyone is for this class of weapon as can be seen by the fact that the USMC, Singapore, and Israel focused instead on smart grenade launchers based around the 40mm class. It will be interesting I think to see if other nations with the capacity to develop such a system choose to follow or adopt the stand alone repeater, bolt action combination or adapt 40mm smart grenades. Nations like Russia, The UK and Germany.
For the record the Australians also conceptualized a smart grenade launcher based on the F80 Styer AUG. It used a over barrel mounted metal storm 3 shot 40mm case less it was cancelled. The French PAPOP had a 5.56mm bullpup with a 2 to 5 round 35mm launcher. It was cancelled.
Also both the US and Korea were working on larger partner smart grenade Machine guns. In both cases they were cancelled.
 

shen

Senior Member
I can't find it right now. Apparently though I think the ballistic computer is actually not on the rifle but fitted separately on the soldier connected by wire to the rifle, but that if necessary the rifle can fire independently of the computer. I guess this means in a breakdown you don't have to lug useless weight and bulk on your rifle.

A previous post already explained some of the reason for going with 20mm bolt feed grenade launchers, note that this decision was made after field testing feedback from active service soldiers:

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/arm...-heavy-20-mm-air-burst-5-5494.html#post270644

It also says that the weapon weighs 4.27kg, by comparison a type 56 assault weighs 4.03kg. Unless exoskeleton tech is sufficiently developed I think it is advantageous to keep weight down.

The FCS is an integral part of the rifle. Leaked photo shows two optic windows on the front of the rectangular bar below the scope. That contains laser rangefinder and ballistic computer. The scope OTOH is detachable, with a day and night scope available.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I can't find it right now. Apparently though I think the ballistic computer is actually not on the rifle but fitted separately on the soldier connected by wire to the rifle, but that if necessary the rifle can fire independently of the computer. I guess this means in a breakdown you don't have to lug useless weight and bulk on your rifle.

A previous post already explained some of the reason for going with 20mm bolt feed grenade launchers, note that this decision was made after field testing feedback from active service soldiers:

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/arm...-heavy-20-mm-air-burst-5-5494.html#post270644

It also says that the weapon weighs 4.27kg, by comparison a type 56 assault weighs 4.03kg. Unless exoskeleton tech is sufficiently developed I think it is advantageous to keep weight down.

Err yes it is accepted that the mechanism is bolt action.

But the ballistics computer and FCS are integrated/non removable from the rifle. We had a picture of a ZH05 in a case stripped down, and you can see the buttons on the left side of the gun fully integrated into the FCS block.

Just consider it: if there isn't a FCS/ballistics computer integrated in the rifle then why have a smart grenade launcher integrated into the rifle at all? The entire point is I have an integrated smart grenade system.

You may be thinking of the scopes, which can be removed/changed.
 
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