More photos of the 191 DMR. Now with bipod.
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
MwRYum
Major
Low-res picture, multi-cam pants, only showing the upper part...hard to decide if that the real deal or 3D-printed mockup...
Most definitely the real deal, it was posted by 208 institute official weibo. The operator I presume is the same as the previous posts (a policeman who has a lot of tacticool chinese stuff).
According to EdgeofEcho, that account also posts fan made stuff. Regardless, there has been at least three photos with multi cam dudes carrying the dmr or the rifle with the dmr hand guard and one of them is wearing that newly issued high cut helmet with the nvg despite wearing multicam. I’m starting to believe that they are official and not 3D printouts by fans. Whether or not they are training models is a different story.
If you guys notice the watermark, you will find that the original poster is 籁YAO, not 208.
This one looks like a 16 or 17 inches barrel to me. It looks a bit too short to be an 18-inche barrel.
MwRYum
Major
We've none at this time. We don't even know when will they finally give it an official debut, like with a 30-minute TV special presentation on CCTV Channel 7, including full live-fire demo, field strip and assembly, etc.
These two articles provided some more details of the new rifle, apparently the two authors had a chance to play around with the new gun at the factory and even got to shoot it.
I'll summarize the key points:
For the top article
1. The factory that produce the new rifle has a direct linage with Hanyang (汉阳兵工厂 ), and is located in Southwestern China. (Anyone familiar with Chinese small arms military factory can shine some light on which factory this is?)
2. The factory produces training versions of the new rifle.
3. The manufacturing of the new rifle is highly automated. It feels as if the factory is producing high end car parts, most workers are not making the weapon by hand, the machines basically takes care of everything. The workers of the factory said that the techniques used in the factory is state of the art, but it does not represent the peak level of gun making (和世界先进水平还有差距).
4. The finish of the new rifle is incredibly well made. The author made note that the picatinny rail of QBZ-191 is especially well machined, and the corners are very smooth. It's edges are not sharp at all, and it is very easy on the hand.
5. The chagrining handle is very ergonomic. Many people, when they first saw the picture of the new rifle, complained that the charging handle is too small. It is not, the pictures are taken at a weird angle so it seemed small. But in reality, the charging handle is very well designed, and highly ergonomic.
6. The author test fired the rifle, and his comment is that the weapon is the most balanced service rifle compared to the ones used by the US, Russia, France, and the UK. What he means by balanced is that the weapon has high accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and high modularity. QBZ-191 no longer shows Russian influence in small arms design, but it is not a rifle that blindly copies Western styles either. It has incorporated a lot of the feedback from the PLA soldiers from the field into its design.
7. The author has tried multiple versions of the rifle, and he preferred the standard version best. There is no significant downside to this rifle, at least based on his personal experience with it.
8. He has noted that the rifle is of extremely high quality. The design philosophy of QBZ-191 significantly differs on this aspect compared to QBZ-95. QBZ-95 is designed to be cheap, so that it can be adopted by a massive army in the shortest timeframe as possible, the low cost of ease of manufacturing was the key considerations when designing the QBZ-95. But QBZ-191 signals a shift in small arms design ideology. PLA no longer believes in the "quantity over quality" philosophy, and ever since 2018, the military hardware, including small arms, that are being produced has become significantly more refined and detailed orientated.
9. Optics will become more and more widely available in the PLA, and it may become standard issue with the new rifle. The author expects PLA infantry tactics at the squad and platoon level to change significantly with the adoption of the new rifle.
10. The iron sight on QBZ-191 is really good. It is not only foldable, but also designed for quick reaction shooting within 100m.
From the bottom article:
1. The rifle feels refined when you play around with it. Anyone who has extensive experience with firearm will know the difference in a high quality rifle and a low quality one. Low quality, and cheap rifles are sharp around the edges, and the machining can be rough. But high quality rifles like SCARs or HK416s are neatly machined and the small details are not missed.
2. People complained about the bolt is not non-reciprocating, saying it is not good for ergonomics, but the author believe that is not a big problem. PLA spec ops complained that shell ejection is a bit too much for the new rifle, and it can be annoying in CQB as brass can bounce everywhere. But the new rifle is not only designed for spec ops use; a simpler design is a bit more robust for field use for conventional forces. Furthermore, making the chagrining handle and the bolt in one piece can also help soldiers to clear jams in a rough manner when shells get stuck (like kicking it). This is something you cannot do so easily with a non-reciprocating charging handle. (but then again, the new rifle should not be jamming under most situations, so its not a big deal)
3. The weapon is very well balanced. It is not front heavy, or not too back heavy. It feels very comfortable on the hand when you do reloads or other types of tactical maneuvers. It is very easy on new users. It is similar to QBU-88 in this regard.
4. Older PLA small arms, like QBZ-95, favored the designers. In other words, soldiers need to get used to how the gun is designed. But for QBZ-191, the gun is deigned to fit the needs of your average solider. This new philosophy is neatly incorporated into many of the details of the rifle.
5. The magazine for QBZ-191 is still a traditional AK style one where the front end of the magazine gets hang onto a tap, and you clip it onto the magazine release on the back of the magazine. The magazine stays on it firmly and does not shake around much. But different from traiditinal AK style magazines, which can be difficult to reload since you must "hang it first then clip it", QBZ-191's magazine can be easily inserted. The author described it as being "you almost feel like it can be inserted vertically like a AR-15 magazine if you push it hard enough". Of course this is not recommended, but it is doable. Regardless, the reload is made very easy. Even first time users can easily insert the magazine with no problem.
6. Fires elector switch is very ergonomic. The trigger is a lot better than the one on QBZ-95. It no longer feels mushy, it is a lot more crisp.
7. The production line for the QBZ-191 is using state of the art equipment. The factory is highly automated, it is not noisy like your typical factory, and the factory does not smell like metal.
8. Currently, the new rifle is not being pumped out at peak rate, since some key parts of the manufacturing process is still being done by hand. But very soon, this stage will become completely automated.
9. The QBZ-191 does not feel worse compared to a HK416.
My thoughts:
QBZ-191's focus on user end feedback is fantastic. Small arms design is extremely detail orientated. Well made and poorly designed service rifles all can all kill people efficiently, most of the times the guns are more accurate and reliable than the user. User experiences with how the gun handles makes all the difference. QBZ-191 has made significant improvements in this area.
Obvious features like the top rail, adjustable buttstock, modular handguard can drastically improve user experience. Other changes are less obvious. QBZ-191 has a grip storage compartment, which is great at storing batteries (you can never go wrong with having extra storage space on your gun). A better and crisper trigger can significantly improve the accuracy of the weapon. 30 degree angle of rotation for each fire mode on the fire selector switch means that soldiers can switch from safe to fire in an instant, which can be life saving in CQB.
AK style magazines are a pain in the ass the reload. I have yet to see a single person (with little experience with firearm) that can successfully reload a AK style magazine on first try, the paddle release on AK style weapons are often incredibly stiff, and inserting the magazine and clip it in is also a difficult process, even for experienced users. AR-15 style weapons are just so much easier to reload than AKs because of the way magazines are locked-in. The fact that QBZ-191 has a pronounced magwell, and an easy to release paddle means that the designers are aware of the problem of AK style flap release, and have significantly improved this problem for the weapon.
Center of balance on small arms is also important, especially for traditional layout weapons. I have a love-hate relationship with bullpups. One the one hand, bullpups are so much easier to handle since the front end of the gun is not heavy, but they have mushy triggers, and are incredibly awkward to reload when you wear plate carriers. Although traditional layout rifles have better reloads and better triggers, some are too front heavy. Front heavy guns are incredibly difficult to maneuver with. Hold down your aim steadily while standing up for more than 30 seconds can be impossible if the gun is too front heavy. For CQB operations where you need to open up a lot of doors, and handle our gun single handedly, a front heavy gun will exhaust you very quickly. The fact that users of QBZ-191 are happy with its balance, especially when switching from a bullpup to traditional layout, is an incredible achievement.
Wait have these pics from those links been posted before for the lmg:
On the other hand, based on the article links posted, thank goodness the PLA is going for quality over quantity and for going for UNIFORM distribution of scopes. Also, it's good to hear that they are taking feedback from the troops on the ground and the spec ops units.