QBZ-191 service rifle family

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Does anyone think the QBZ191 can become as ubiquitous as the Russian AK and American M4 one day?

The Russians are major small arms exporters but with the unfortunate situation in Ukraine, they need every weapon and accompanying ammo they produce in house these days. Apparently Chinese arms exports to Africa have exceeded Russian product just this year. And the Americans just love to giving away their M4 rifles like candy during Halloween, everyone from the Israelis to Taiwan to the Taliban have gotten free M4s and 5.56 ammo for their birthdays.

Maybe the Chinese can start with their neighbors, the North Koreans, maybe even the South Koreans, the Japanese, Mongols and ASEAN members? The Mideast, Venezuela (they use QBZ95s apparently) and Cuba maybe??

Thoughts?

No.

China doesn't export 5.8mm rounds which the QBZ-191 family, so there is no chance of it becoming ubiquitous.

In theory they could export a 5.56mm or 5.54mm (or I suppose 7.62x39mm) variant, but there's no reason why customers would be interested in buying it over existing intermediate cartridge rifles that are already on the market and have more established parts/aftermarket support etc.

Remember the proliferation of AK family and AR-15 family were in context of cold war competition, proxy wars, and supplying small arms to nations, rebellions, armed movements etc.


The only reason it can be ubiquitous is if China starts to freely give out or very cheaply give QBZ-191 rifles and 5.8mm around the world for no particular reason.


There should be no particular academic or enthusiast interest in QBZ-191 family becoming as "ubiquitous" as AK family or AR-15 family. It is neither desirable or undesirable, and I'm not sure why anyone would particularly want to see it being ubiquitous.
 

hooly

New Member
Registered Member
There should be no particular academic or enthusiast interest in QBZ-191 family becoming as "ubiquitous" as AK family or AR-15 family. It is neither desirable or undesirable, and I'm not sure why anyone would particularly want to see it being ubiquitous.

The Chinese would desire it, if for no other reason than to earn export cash and create more demand for CNY. The Chinese already make everything and export it to the world, why not QBZs too? The world is in turmoil, with a constant demand for firearms, why shouldn't the QBZ fill that need? We are in Cold War 2.0, with conflict everywhere, civil war in Burma, the Mideast, Ukraine, Congo, the world needs the QBZ family of firearms. The QBZ is cheaper than the FN Scar or HK416 and other fancy Euro guns, has the modularity and ergonomics of the AR and the reliability of the AK combining the best of both platforms. With China's industrial capacity, the QBZ could flood the world.
 

Aniah

Senior Member
Registered Member
The Chinese would desire it, if for no other reason than to earn export cash and create more demand for CNY. The Chinese already make everything and export it to the world, why not QBZs too? The world is in turmoil, with a constant demand for firearms, why shouldn't the QBZ fill that need? We are in Cold War 2.0, with conflict everywhere, civil war in Burma, the Mideast, Ukraine, Congo, the world needs the QBZ family of firearms. The QBZ is cheaper than the FN Scar or HK416 and other fancy Euro guns, has the modularity and ergonomics of the AR and the reliability of the AK combining the best of both platforms. With China's industrial capacity, the QBZ could flood the world.
Except China ships ARs and AKs for dirt cheap so what's the need to ship a new gun? Also, I doubt small arms are making them any big bucks compared to the vehicles.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The Chinese would desire it, if for no other reason than to earn export cash and create more demand for CNY. The Chinese already make everything and export it to the world, why not QBZs too? The world is in turmoil, with a constant demand for firearms, why shouldn't the QBZ fill that need? We are in Cold War 2.0, with conflict everywhere, civil war in Burma, the Mideast, Ukraine, Congo, the world needs the QBZ family of firearms. The QBZ is cheaper than the FN Scar or HK416 and other fancy Euro guns, has the modularity and ergonomics of the AR and the reliability of the AK combining the best of both platforms. With China's industrial capacity, the QBZ could flood the world.

As Aniah said, they can simply sell AKs or ARs made in China for the foreign market, and they already do.
There's no reason for them to sell QBZ-191 (whether it's chambered in 5.8mm or one of the existing intermediate cartridges).


The reason why QBZ-191 is not particularly important or vital or worthwhile to sell is because there are much larger existing AK and AR families that exist which they can sell Chinese made versions of, and there are much larger fleets of non-5.8mm cartridges that exist and China has shown no interest in exporting 5.8mm.


There is simply no particular unique benefit and certainly no need to sell QBZ-191 or 5.8mm.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Does anyone think the QBZ191 can become as ubiquitous as the Russian AK and American M4 one day?
In addition to the reason given above. There is also the fact that the AK became so ubiquitous as the Soviets gave away not just the rifles but the production capacity for a song. If you had so much as an inclination that you might be willing to tell the Western world to sit down and rotate the Soviets would show up and build an AK factory for you.
The Russians are major small arms exporters but with the unfortunate situation in Ukraine, they need every weapon and accompanying ammo they produce in house these days. Apparently Chinese arms exports to Africa have exceeded Russian product just this year. And the Americans just love to giving away their M4 rifles like candy during Halloween, everyone from the Israelis to Taiwan to the Taliban have gotten free M4s and 5.56 ammo for their birthdays.
The IDF gets military aide from the U.S.. that comes in many forms but often with the catch that the money has to be spent in the United States. Farther over the years the IDF has been transitioning away from M4 rifles and to increasingly their own design the X95.
Taiwan does get M4 but they also produce their own rifles of their own design. These resemble M4 but internally use a piston system.
The Taliban got rifles and weapons intended for the Afghan national army. That organization however fell apart as the national leadership of the country failed to act as leaders.

Maybe the Chinese can start with their neighbors, the North Koreans, maybe even the South Koreans, the Japanese, Mongols and ASEAN members? The Mideast, Venezuela (they use QBZ95s apparently) and Cuba maybe??

Thoughts?
The North Koreans adopted the 5.45x39mm Ak74 series and manufacture them for their own use. They don’t need Chinese small arms besides well they like to play with both the Russians and Chinese they don’t like to have reliance on either.
South Korea is NATO compliant and has been selling NATO spec weapons with its own industry base one that is gaining ground as an international exporter and supplier of NATO weapons.
The Japanese? Are you kidding? Again NATO compliant, US Ally they manufacture their own.
Mongolia. The country is too poor and money would be better spent on other modernizations.
ASEAN? Really ambitious considering many have rocky relations with China.
The Middle East. That’s a region not a country many have indigenous AK and small arms production or stockpiles of Soviet ammunition.
Venezuela Latin American is America’s back yard and getting arms shipments in is a tall order. Not impossible just difficult. As a result the Soviets didn’t make the AK as popular as they would have liked. Still in recent history the Russians built an AK103 factory in Venezuela.
Cuba… too poor to modernize. If they needed new rifles they would likely buy from Venezuela.

Overall the biggest problem with your logic is establishment of a new cartridge the AK series has a strong establishment in Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Europe but until recently almost a unicorn in the Americas. It has taken decades to establish a cartridge as universally recognized. Even today some NATO states still use 7.62x51mm or 7.62x39mm as their primary infantry cartridge.
The Russians never completely transitioned to 5.45x39mm and still issue 7.62x39mm. Pushing 5.8x42mm isn’t really viable especially as the cartridge doesn’t really offer a substantial difference in performance compared to the 5.56x45mm NATO. Offering QBZ191 as in 5.56 or 7.62x39mm might sweeten the pot but with the sheer volume of alternatives available including Chinese made AR and AK derived rifles? The head start of the Stoner rifle and Kalashnikov rifle doesn’t help either. These are proven designs with massive establishments of production and support systems internationally.
That’s something you are missing because Well you see the Colt or FN M4 you missed the Canadian C8 or the German HK416, the French Lebel VCD 15, the Swiss Sig M400, the Emerati Caracal Car 816, The Taiwanese T91, the Iranian Masaf 1, the Turkish MKE Mpt 55 the Israeli IWI ARAD and so many more. Even the Russians produce M4 clones the VEPR 15. You have one Chinese producer of the QBZ191 vs hundreds of AR15 clones built to military specifications the same for the AK.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
In addition to the reason given above. There is also the fact that the AK became so ubiquitous as the Soviets gave away not just the rifles but the production capacity for a song. If you had so much as an inclination that you might be willing to tell the Western world to sit down and rotate the Soviets would show up and build an AK factory for you.

The IDF gets military aide from the U.S.. that comes in many forms but often with the catch that the money has to be spent in the United States. Farther over the years the IDF has been transitioning away from M4 rifles and to increasingly their own design the X95.
Taiwan does get M4 but they also produce their own rifles of their own design. These resemble M4 but internally use a piston system.
The Taliban got rifles and weapons intended for the Afghan national army. That organization however fell apart as the national leadership of the country failed to act as leaders.


The North Koreans adopted the 5.45x39mm Ak74 series and manufacture them for their own use. They don’t need Chinese small arms besides well they like to play with both the Russians and Chinese they don’t like to have reliance on either.
South Korea is NATO compliant and has been selling NATO spec weapons with its own industry base one that is gaining ground as an international exporter and supplier of NATO weapons.
The Japanese? Are you kidding? Again NATO compliant, US Ally they manufacture their own.
Mongolia. The country is too poor and money would be better spent on other modernizations.
ASEAN? Really ambitious considering many have rocky relations with China.
The Middle East. That’s a region not a country many have indigenous AK and small arms production or stockpiles of Soviet ammunition.
Venezuela Latin American is America’s back yard and getting arms shipments in is a tall order. Not impossible just difficult. As a result the Soviets didn’t make the AK as popular as they would have liked. Still in recent history the Russians built an AK103 factory in Venezuela.
Cuba… too poor to modernize. If they needed new rifles they would likely buy from Venezuela.

Overall the biggest problem with your logic is establishment of a new cartridge the AK series has a strong establishment in Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Europe but until recently almost a unicorn in the Americas. It has taken decades to establish a cartridge as universally recognized. Even today some NATO states still use 7.62x51mm or 7.62x39mm as their primary infantry cartridge.
The Russians never completely transitioned to 5.45x39mm and still issue 7.62x39mm. Pushing 5.8x42mm isn’t really viable especially as the cartridge doesn’t really offer a substantial difference in performance compared to the 5.56x45mm NATO. Offering QBZ191 as in 5.56 or 7.62x39mm might sweeten the pot but with the sheer volume of alternatives available including Chinese made AR and AK derived rifles? The head start of the Stoner rifle and Kalashnikov rifle doesn’t help either. These are proven designs with massive establishments of production and support systems internationally.
That’s something you are missing because Well you see the Colt or FN M4 you missed the Canadian C8 or the German HK416, the French Lebel VCD 15, the Swiss Sig M400, the Emerati Caracal Car 816, The Taiwanese T91, the Iranian Masaf 1, the Turkish MKE Mpt 55 the Israeli IWI ARAD and so many more. Even the Russians produce M4 clones the VEPR 15. You have one Chinese producer of the QBZ191 vs hundreds of AR15 clones built to military specifications the same for the AK.

A few notes:
I think your assessment of ASEAN countries - China relationship is off. Most are good except the current administration of the Philippines, and Vietnam would likely not get so close in the present time. Singapore would not likely import Chinese hardware, since the armed forces were closer to the west historically, but the relationship is fine. Malaysia and Indonesia are somewhat in between, but for the purposes of this discussion, aren't looking at Chinese rifles.

Laos has imported QBZ97 for police and special forces use. Thailand has imported a lot of Chinese military hardware, same with Myanmar. Cambodia already uses Chinese rifles as standard issue.

Assuming the cartridge is not an issue and the rifle can be adapted to the customer requirements. I think generally what would work against QBZ191 is not necessarily the ubiquity of the AR and AK style rifles, but simply it is a "luxury" item. QBZ191 is all about modularity, mounting different optics, accessories (typical 21st century stuff). As you pointed out, many countries are too poor for those things. Like selling a Mercedes to someone who needs a Civic. Also to your point, and addressing the OP’s idea about exporting, China already offers cheap AK and AR clones themselves which are very popular already. Iraq just recently showed off the brand new production line for the CQ and Type 56, so these old dogs are still very active in China’s own export portfolio, not to mention the Type 81 which still pops up all over the place too.
 

Jose B. Torres

New Member
Registered Member
These are the weapons that the Chinese are currently offering. If they want to release the QBZ-191 to the international market, they can do that, but right now, they haven't finish issuing their new rifle to their armed forces. Also, they need to work on the design to make it attractive to export sales, like redesign the lower receiver to accept AR magazines, specially the new polymer designs; and AK magazines, if it's made for 7.62x39mm.

Don't forget that the Chinese factories are also making M-14 clones in 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm; MP5 and UZI clones; PKM, FN-MAG and M-249 machine guns; as well the .50 caliber M2 Browning heavy machine gun., These weapons will be enough for export offerings, including semi-auto onyl sporter variants. The Chinese military already were explicit on this: their local ammunition cannot be exported, as well some of their weapons, but they can modify them to handle standard ammo used around the World; that's why both China and Russia adopted the 9x19 mm Parabellum for their pistols and submachine guns. When the time comes, the QBZ-191 will be ready, but for now, it will be issued only to China.

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A few notes:
I think your assessment of ASEAN countries - China relationship is off. Most are good except the current administration of the Philippines, and Vietnam would likely not get so close in the present time. Singapore would not likely import Chinese hardware, since the armed forces were closer to the west historically, but the relationship is fine. Malaysia and Indonesia are somewhat in between, but for the purposes of this discussion, aren't looking at Chinese rifles.

Laos has imported QBZ97 for police and special forces use. Thailand has imported a lot of Chinese military hardware, same with Myanmar. Cambodia already uses Chinese rifles as standard issue.

Assuming the cartridge is not an issue and the rifle can be adapted to the customer requirements. I think generally what would work against QBZ191 is not necessarily the ubiquity of the AR and AK style rifles, but simply it is a "luxury" item. QBZ191 is all about modularity, mounting different optics, accessories (typical 21st century stuff). As you pointed out, many countries are too poor for those things. Like selling a Mercedes to someone who needs a Civic. Also to your point, and addressing the OP’s idea about exporting, China already offers cheap AK and AR clones themselves which are very popular already. Iraq just recently showed off the brand new production line for the CQ and Type 56, so these old dogs are still very active in China’s own export portfolio, not to mention the Type 81 which still pops up all over the place too.
First our friend liked to paint regions or groups in a unified form that doesn’t exist. The individual political situations are so variable that you can’t just say a region will adopt something.
That’s my point there.
Second slowly rail systems and optics are making their way through to the lower levels of military tiers. However the main point I was trying to make is just what you point out with Iraqi CQs. Just as I said with the AK factories. The AK and AR are so ubiquitous as they are not single source. Licensed and unlicensed manufacturers are plentiful and even countries we often don’t think of as having an industry base manufacture weapons of this class. Malaysia for example licenses M4 carbine and manufactures them. Indonesia designed and developed their own Pindad SS2 rifles and alongside the QBZ95 Laos uses them too.
Thai land heavily favors NATO rifles with CQ among the long list of rifles used by them. Cambodia is a mixed bag of Soviet and American with Korean rifles and Malaysian in the mix.

Generally speaking the manufacturers of rifles are also the manufacturers of ammunition and that again favors the existing 5.56 and 7.62mm calibers. So the first issue in export would be either convincing would be users to buy a whole new caliber and manufacturing base or conversion of the the design.
Conversion to 5.56 is a little odd. As if you wanted to use the well established 5.56 magazine base then you basically end up with something resembling a piston AR clone but with a side charging handle. Might as well just keep the CQ series.
Adapting to 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm would be more interesting, however not really earth shattering.
Endgame is though almost nothing about the QBZ191 makes it interesting enough or puts it in a position where it would really rock the boat on AR and AK dominion over the small arms world.
 
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