Possible Turkish incursion into Iraq

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I would just like to add that we will know the resolution of this crisis in the next few weeks because we can consider December 1st an effective deadline for major Turkish action against the PKK because the winter snows will make major operations impossible. The Qandil Mountains are already dusted with snow.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
Remember, though Turkey was given a one-year authorization. They may use the winter to gain control of passes out of the mountain and launch strikes inside the mountains, possible use some commandos too. That way when spring comes by the PKK will already be weakened and they can go in for the kill.

Turkey has every intention of wiping them out I think, so they'll take however long they need.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Unless it decides it can use a proxy in the form of the Kurds, especially those living in the countries it wants to attack. This option means that the ground action would all be Kurdish and the US could simply support from the air.

Bad news for Turkey as it could mean that they are considered disposable!

The Turks have been America's ally since the Korean war, when Turkish troops fought side by side in American dug trenches. The Turkish army is by no doubt one of the most well equipped, well trained, and motivated armed forces on this planet. They have one of the world's oldest air forces, and you should ask the British and Australians what took place in Gallipoli when they met the Turkish army. A theoretical joint offensive against Turkey by the Kurds and Americans will result in a very, very bloody battle. For starters, just rumors of an attack has already spiked oil prices to 90 dollars a barrel. The Americans aren't in a good position either to launch an air offensive against Turkey. With Turkey having over 240 F-16s, upgraded Phantoms and Tigers, along with a modern SAM batteries, they'll be a very hard opponent to take down to say the least. Turkey is an indispensable ally to America, and the Armenian genocide resolution has made things much worse. If it passes through Congress, and if the referendum in Kirkuk doesn't bide well, we may see a very chilly end to US-Turkey relations....
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I hear what your saying Crazy, but my usually quite acute Political antenna are tingling like mad over this, ...... its just aint right somehow.

Unless it is a fiendish plot to get Iran and Syria to compromise themselves in acts of "aggression" against Iraqi territory and people, the mood music is all wrong.

If these mountain PKK bases were Jihadists, how long does anyone think they wouldl have lasted, especially as they were not integrated into major local civil communities?

Could be be on account of Kurdish Unity? Well, we have seen enough Kurdsish in fighting and schisms to know the truth on that. It would be easy to do deals with major Iraqui Kurd factions for a no fuss response to the elimination of a fractious rival that endangers the continuation of their cozy independant enclave.

Then we have the increasing reliance of the US on Kurdish Units of the Iraqi army to protect pipelines in Northern Iraq. Since Kurdish units replaced Arab units in predominently Arab areas, sabotage attacks against the Pipelines have plummeted. Plus the Kirkuk rweferendum is definitly raising the local temperature as you say.

I relaise that my suspisions seem fantastic and highly unlikely, but all I can say, is that when listening to the Background Music and seeing who Uncle Sam is dancing with most, the Kurdish solution is the only one that seems; to me, to make any sense at all.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
I hear what your saying Crazy, but my usually quite acute Political antenna are tingling like mad over this, ...... its just aint right somehow.

Unless it is a fiendish plot to get Iran and Syria to compromise themselves in acts of "aggression" against Iraqi territory and people, the mood music is all wrong.

I doubt we're trying to lure Turkey into a war to have an excuse for going after Iran.

If these mountain PKK bases were Jihadists, how long does anyone think they wouldl have lasted, especially as they were not integrated into major local civil communities?

The PKK is not Jihadist. It's Marxist.

Then we have the increasing reliance of the US on Kurdish Units of the Iraqi army to protect pipelines in Northern Iraq. Since Kurdish units replaced Arab units in predominently Arab areas, sabotage attacks against the Pipelines have plummeted. Plus the Kirkuk rweferendum is definitly raising the local temperature as you say.

I relaise that my suspisions seem fantastic and highly unlikely, but all I can say, is that when listening to the Background Music and seeing who Uncle Sam is dancing with most, the Kurdish solution is the only one that seems; to me, to make any sense at all.

The Kurds are very useful allies in Iraq, but ultimately they have their own plans as do the Turks. We're probably the only ones that can do something about the PKK without getting any massive conflict started.
 

alwaysfresh

New Member
Turkey bombs Kurdish rebels in southeast

Reuters
Monday October 29, 2007

Helicopter gunships bombed Kurdish rebel positions in southeast Turkey on Monday and the government flexed its military muscle with big national day parades and flypasts in major cities.

Turkey has massed up to 100,000 troops, backed by tanks, artillery, warplanes and combat helicopters, along the Iraqi border in readiness for a possible large-scale incursion to hunt down 3,000 guerrillas who use the region as a base.

The White House said it was pressing Turkey and Iraq to keep up talks aimed at averting a major cross-border operation.

....


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Let's see how the US foreign policy reacts (CIA), to the news. It seems that Turkey is trying to put on a show for its public, to claim the demands of an invasion. Now if the PKK react to this action, Turkey will have dug the hole where an invasion is a must. If the PKK do not react, then both US and Turkey can avoid the invasion.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
This is neither here nor there, but if I were a Jihadist/insurgent commander in Iraq or someone with a jihadist network under my control, I would be working as hard as I could to execute a false-flag operation against a soft Turkish civillian target and make it appear that the PKK was to blame. I might even right "US Military Issue Serial Number" on some mortar rounds and leave them lying around to fan Turkish suspicions that the CIA is somehow to blame for this situation.

Vlad Plasmius said:
Remember, though Turkey was given a one-year authorization. They may use the winter to gain control of passes out of the mountain and launch strikes inside the mountains, possible use some commandos too. That way when spring comes by the PKK will already be weakened and they can go in for the kill.

Turkey has every intention of wiping them out I think, so they'll take however long they need.

Well that would be the militarily and diplomatically sensible thing to do. But I doubt that the Erdogan government would survive long enough. Some are already calling for his head. If they let this opportunity to attack slip away we might see the fall of the government, or even (and really this is just speculation by me) the military, in coalition with the right wing, overthrown Erdogan and installing the secular parties who will then give the military authorization to do what it wants and invade.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
What I mean is Turkey might decide to invade, but not go into the mountains until spring, instead cutting off the passes, launching air and artillery strikes, and securing the Iraqi side of the border.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
This is neither here nor there, but if I were a Jihadist/insurgent commander in Iraq or someone with a jihadist network under my control, I would be working as hard as I could to execute a false-flag operation against a soft Turkish civillian target and make it appear that the PKK was to blame. I might even right "US Military Issue Serial Number" on some mortar rounds and leave them lying around to fan Turkish suspicions that the CIA is somehow to blame for this situation.

The only such group in Iraq that may have that capability and is against the US would be Ansar al-Sunnah, and that's because they are heavily based in the north. By no doubt though it would be a dream come true for the insurgency: a united front against a single enemy, and that can spell real trouble for the US...
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Here's some breaking news, it seems like the Armenian genocide bill has been floored (repealled):

CONGRESSIONAL RESOLUTION TO RECOGNIZE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS TABLED
Joshua Kucera 10/29/07

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A draft US congressional resolution that would have recognized the massacre of 1.5 million Armenians in Ottoman-era Turkey as genocide has been tabled after the White House, the US military and the Turkish government convinced many original supporters of the measure that its adoption would irreparably damage US-Turkish relations.

The bill appeared to be on track for approval after it passed the House Foreign Affairs Committee on October 10. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. The Armenian community and their lobbying groups in Washington have been pushing for such a resolution for years without success. This year, though, all the pieces seemed to be in place: The new speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, is a longtime supporter of Armenian-American causes, and Democrats, who generally are more supportive of genocide recognition, are in the majority. At one point, 227 of the 435 members of the House of Representatives had signed on as cosponsors, suggesting that the resolution would pass if it came to a vote.

But the closer the resolution came to success, the more Turkey and the Bush administration fought against it. All eight living former secretaries of state came out against the measure and President George W. Bush spoke publicly against it. The day after it passed the committee, Turkey recalled its ambassador to Washington, and Turkish officials threatened to cut off cooperation in Iraq. Gen. David Petraeus, the commander of US forces in Iraq, met privately with several members of Congress to try to convince them to withdraw their support.

In the days after it passed the committee, 11 of the bill’s original co-sponsors removed their support from the bill and other cosponsors publicly said they would not vote for it. On October 24, four of the measure’s most vocal supporters wrote to Pelosi, asking her not to bring the measure to a full vote. "We believe that a large majority of our colleagues want to support a resolution recognizing the genocide on the House floor and that they will do so, provided the timing is more favorable."

The forcefulness of the opposition to the genocide recognition turned the tide against the measure, said one Congressional staffer, speaking on condition of anonymity. "The [Democratic House] leadership said ‘we are going to bring this to the floor by Nov. 6,’ and they were very adamant about it," the staffer said. "Then you saw the Turkish community, the Turkish lobby started to get very active about it. The Armenian community is very well organized and the Turkish community has not been. When it passed committee and Pelosi and Hoyer said that it’s coming to the floor, then they said, ‘now we’ve got to step it up.’"

Many members of Congress signed on to the resolution without recognizing the extent to which it offended Turkey. "When they recalled their ambassador, members realized they weren’t joking," the staffer said. "I talked to the chief of staff of one of the members who got off the bill and I said ‘I saw your boss got off the bill.’ He said ‘Yeah, I don’t even know why we got on the thing in the first place.’ I think people sponsored it without thinking very much about it."

Armenian lobbying groups put a brave face on the latest developments, refusing to admit defeat. "This is a retooling of the timeline," said Elizabeth Chouldjian, a spokeswoman for the Armenian National Committee of America. "We’re confident it will come up again during this term," she said. The term of this Congress ends at the end of next year.

"The administration reinforcing these threats as opposed to standing firm to them, as well as the Turkish government’s multimillion-dollar lobbying efforts definitely had an impact," said Bryan Ardouny, the executive director of the Armenian Assembly of America. "But this is not a defeat. It’s an uphill battle."
The defeat of the resolution will likely help President Bush in early November when Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan comes to Washington. One of the key issues on the agenda will be a spike in attacks by the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which uses rear bases in northern Iraq to attack targets in Turkey. US officials have urged Turkey to not use its military to pursue the PKK inside Iraq, and a top Turkish general said recently that Turkey would hold off on a decision until Bush and Erdogan meet on Nov. 5. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

The resolution’s defeat will help Bush’s hand in negotiating, said Hugh Pope, an Istanbul-based senior analyst for the International Crisis Group. "It will help some. But there’s a level of nationalist backlash here that will make managing the situation very hard for the United States, if they don’t offer something that will limit the PKK," he said.

That "something" could include US attacks on the PKK, permission to send Turkish fighter-bombers into Iraq to attack PKK targets, or other sorts of military access. "Of course, this puts the United States into a very tough corner, but words aren’t going to satisfy the Turks," Pope said.

Overall, however, the defeat of the Armenian resolution has helped temporarily shore up US-Turkish relations, which have been rocky over the past several years. "Lots of countries have passed bills. This is the first time that a country has decided not to go ahead so publicly," Pope said.


Editor’s Note: Joshua Kucera is a Washington, DC,-based freelance writer who specializes in security issues in Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Middle East.



Maybe this can give the US some more negotiating power, but probably not enough to stop some type of military action by Turkey...
 
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