PLAN's Lack of sufficient helicopters...an issue?

Russia to Delivery Aircraft Equipment for China’s Navy

Yesterday there were meetings in Beijing of vice premier and defense minister Sergey Ivanov with the premier of the PRC state council, Web Jiabao, and PRC defense minister, General-Colonel Cao Gangchuan. The prospects of military and military-technical cooperation were discusses at them, in the area of which right now a deadlock is being observed. Sergey Ivanov only reported on the results of the secret negotiations that Russo-Chinese military cooperation will be developing even further. According to Kommersant’s information, details of contracts were discussed in Beijing for the delivery for China’s navy of almost 40 Ka-29 assault transport helicopters, more than 20 Ka-31 radar patrol and control helicopters and also more than 15 Be-200 anti-submarine amphibious airplanes, which are equipped with the modular “Morskoy Zmey” ((Sea Dragon)) search and targeting system.

The signing by Rosoboronehksport of these contracts is expected in the fall of this year. Sergey Ivanov announced that “Russia’s military and technical cooperation system with China will not be changing for the time being.” By the way, at the same time he did not rule out the possibility (true, in the future) of Beijing’s participation in future high technology projects, including the fifth generation fighter project. However, according to S. Ivanov, for this, it is necessary to resolve a whole series of legal problems. In particular, to sign an agreement about the protection of intellectual property.

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i pulled this off of china-defence blogspot. Good news. It appears the PLAN has finally decided to wise up and get more helicopters. Two thoughts:

1. ordering ka-29s means the naval z-8 project is not doing so well
2. ordering 40 ka-31s means the PLAN wishes to equip more ships with helos. it might also mean it will be a long while before the z-15 is out. I hope the plan is satified with the ka-31.

It seems that negotiating a sale of some helicopters is too insignificant for a meeting between the number two Russian, Ivanov, and the number two Chinese, Wen Jiabao (and Cao Gangchuan). The helicopter sale is really just the tip of the iceberg, I think. It's interesting that they talk about collaboration on the 5th generation fighter program, right at the same time that the final designs from CAC and SAC were submitted. Most likely the PAK-FA program wants to be a contender also. (Sorry if this is a bit off topic.)

MIGleader said:

i pulled this off of china-defence blogspot. Good news. It appears the PLAN has finally decided to wise up and get more helicopters. Two thoughts:

1. ordering ka-29s means the naval z-8 project is not doing so well
2. ordering 40 ka-31s means the PLAN wishes to equip more ships with helos. it might also mean it will be a long while before the z-15 is out. I hope the plan is satified with the ka-31.

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Where did you get number of 40 Ka-31s? From above quote and other sources only 'more than twenty' has been given, not figure of 40.

PLAN is about to get a massive boost, and I am very very excited about this, despite the lack of additional purchases of KA-28 which China needs more of badly.

So until Z-9C gets off the production line in good numbers, PLAN still lacks sufficient numbers of ship board ASW/SAR choppers.

But 40 KA-29...20+ KA-31...15 BE-200?

That sounds about right for the current requirements.

15 BE-200, that will boost PLAN's ASW capabilities, for the first time PLAN would have a proper Maritime Patrol Aircraft with attack capabilities too (if it can carry torpedoes etc) coz the Y8MPA unfortunately cannot carry weapons.

40 KA-29...this is interesting. PLAN has those 20+ LSTs and upcoming LPH platform that all can operate helicopters. While we mostly expected a Z-8 variation, I didn't see this coming. This is great, perhaps the PLAN marines will form their first aviation units using KA-29s. This beast could seat 16 troops, is armoured, and can carry a variety or rockets and cannon.
WIth this, the Z-8s currently performing so many roles in transporting marines maybe relieved by the next decade to fill in the auxilary support or shore based patrol role.

KA-31...very interesting. Pre cursor for a PLAN carrier? Afterall, Russian and Indian carriers operate the KA-31 as its AEW platform. 20+ is more than sufficient for one air group. So maybe they'd perform shore based roles in addition?

Where did you get number of 40 Ka-31s? From above quote and other sources only 'more than twenty' has been given, not figure of 40.

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sry...must of been typo

15 BE-200, that will boost PLAN's ASW capabilities, for the first time PLAN would have a proper Maritime Patrol Aircraft with attack capabilities too (if it can carry torpedoes etc) coz the Y8MPA unfortunately cannot carry weapons.

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i never got the impression the y-8 was lacking anything in its role as a MPA. The be-200 is not an MPA.

The be-200's ordered do not even have to be for the military. the plane was orginally designed to fight fires, and thats what the chinese might do with it.

If the military does use it, it could be freight carrying, or amphibious hauling of troops.

40 KA-29...this is interesting. PLAN has those 20+ LSTs and upcoming LPH platform that all can operate helicopters. While we mostly expected a Z-8 variation, I didn't see this coming. This is great, perhaps the PLAN marines will form their first aviation units using KA-29s. This beast could seat 16 troops, is armoured, and can carry a variety or rockets and cannon.
WIth this, the Z-8s currently performing so many roles in transporting marines maybe relieved by the next decade to fill in the auxilary support or shore based patrol role.

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The ka-29 is probably serve as the creme de crop of PLAN naval aviation helicopters. they might first serve with PLANAF units. in terms of passenger payload, the ka-28 is far inferior to the z-8. thus, it is unlike the PLAN has decided to replace the z-8 with the ka-29.

KA-31...very interesting. Pre cursor for a PLAN carrier? Afterall, Russian and Indian carriers operate the KA-31 as its AEW platform. 20+ is more than sufficient for one air group. So maybe they'd perform shore based roles in addition?

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probably for FFGs anbd DDGs. Any remaining ones might go towards a future carrier. Remeber, the first ka-28s served with PLANAf units, not the PLAN. the same could happen here.

No about the Z-8 being 'replaced', im not saying they should retire!

But think about it, number 1...Z-8 was never intended as a tactical transport. It is a good naval helicopter for ship board and shore based work. But remember, Z-8A has only been delivered in small numbers to PLA Aviation, and the naval Z-8s, despite having a good payload and are still being produced in small numbers, ultimately PLAN cannot spare all of them purely for transport...

They have no armour, or self defense suites. It makes them large and lumbering targets. So you may argue that Sea Knights, Chinooks and Sea Stallions and Commandos are used as naval assault transports even though they are huge. Well boy,these were mostly designed to be military transports to start with, and many have self defense and some armament fitted.

Z-8s were originally designed as naval ship board choppers, not foremost in the assault role. Of course, why not use a handful, afterall they can carry heavy payloads such as small vehicles and howitzers. But ultimately, I would not depend on them as first line transports, because

a) too slow, not so agile, lack of self defense
b) Not too many of them around

If it was Z-8A, that is a different story, course I'd depend on it, unfortunately they are going to the army.

40 KA-29s, perfect for PLAN. Armoured, armed, it is probably China's best assault chopper purchased yet.

Since Z-8s aren't many in number, they can now be relieved in this 'transport' role, and perform other much needed tasks in war...such as aerial mine sweeping, SAR, ASW, aerial-to-ship replenishment, auxilary support and as the French originally designed the Super Frelon...SSBN cover if needed.

This report does mention 40 ka-29, 20 ka-31 and 15 b2-200

中评社香港4月28日电／俄罗斯媒体报道，中国海军最近向俄罗斯采购一批登陆战装备和反潜飞机。包括40架用于伞兵空降作战的Ka-29直升机，20架带有无线电定位导航系统、可用于侦察作战的Ka-31预警直升机，以及15架最新式的别-200型水陆两栖反潜飞机。

美国之音引述俄罗斯商人日报报道，刚结束访中行程的俄罗斯副总理兼国防部长伊凡诺夫，在北京与中国方面讨论这笔新的军火交易细节。报道指出，最新式的别-200型水陆两栖反潜飞机，这种飞机具备专门用于反潜作战的海蛇式搜寻瞄准攻击系统。
　　
　　据报道，中俄双方计画在今年秋季正式签订这笔军火交易合约。
　　
　　资料显示，Ka-29是在Ka-27反潜直升机的基础上，研制的双发动机突击运输及电子战直升机。这种直升机有众多改型，其中Ka-29RLD后改名为Ka-31雷达预警直升机。
　　
　　Ka-29直升机备有四管卡特林7.62公厘机枪，备弹量为1800发，可装8枚AT-6螺旋空面导弹，及80公厘火箭发射巢，最高平飞速度每小时280公里，作战半径（6或8次目标进入）1003公里。
　　
　　Ka-31直升机机腹有个长方型旋转天线（每分钟6转），平时收起紧贴于机腹下，使用时垂直放下；在3000米巡航高度下，机上的E-801MOko空用雷达能同时追踪最多20个目标，战斗机大小的目标侦测距离为110公里，水面船舰侦测距离为200公里。
　　
　　美国之音报道，由于俄罗斯一直拒绝将最尖端的武器装备出售给中国，双方军火交易的规模近年来一直停滞不前。
　　
　　伊万诺夫26日在北京表示，为打破这种局面，未来不排除邀请中国参与部分高科技武器装备研发的可能性，包括第五代战斗机的设计研制。

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Seriously, this is a huge purchase. As big of a purchase you will see china make off the Russians in a while.

And Roger, there is no way China will actually accept pak-fa as a possible design. it may participate with the Russians to finish certain areas faster, but that's about it.

Even this deal, i'd like to see some russian side commenting on it before thinking it will actually go through.

well, the article i pulled got its information form kommersant, so i did a little research:

Russia, China Not to Change Military & Technical Cooperation Now
Russia’s Deputy PM and Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov, who is in Beijing now, met Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Defense Minister Cao Gangchuan yesterday, April 26. The highlight was the future of military and technical cooperation, which is rather stagnant, and this stagnation, the analysts say, roots in Russia’s unwillingness to supply the most updated armaments to China.

When it comes to the export of Russian weapons to China, the ‘no comment’ attitude is the usual practice for both countries. The recent negotiations proved no exception. Russia’s-Chinese military and technical cooperation will be developing, Ivanov was brief after negotiations.

As usual, the anonymous sources were more eloquent. In Beijing, Russia and China canvassed the contracts for shipping to China’ Navy nearly 40 Ka-29 assault and transport helicopters, more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters of radar observation and more than 15 Be-200 amphibious aircraft equipped with the Sea Serpent weapon-aiming system. Rosoboronexport is willing to conclude these contracts this fall.

Asked about possibility of the joint projects with Beijing, Ivanov said the pattern of military and technical cooperation of the countries won’t change for the time being. In future, Beijing may join some high-tech projects, including the project for the fifth-generation fighter. But this participation, the defense minister said, calls for settlement of a number of legal issues and concluding an agreement on intellectual property protection is among them.

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This report agrees exactly with whats been metioned before, except it calls the be-200s radar the "sea serpent" rather than "sea dragon". Since kommersant isa highyl reliable russian source, im tempted to believe the contract will go through.

The different helicopters are very usefull in different jobs - and China (in my opinion) should take all helos they can order by russia or which can be build in national factories.

For SAR and sub-hunting (by DDGs, Frigates and future carriers) I would prefere a mix of the Ka-28 ASW/SAR and Z-9C Naval Helicopter, also supportet by a small number of Z-8 helos (there combat range 500km (with 3,000kg payload) is much better than that of KA-28, as I know) in sub-hunting missions.

For amphibious operations i would prefere some new amphibious carriers, operating PLA Navy Z-8 and Attack-Helos (like WZ-10, WZ-9 Night Variant Attack Helicopter) and "mixed prof." like the Mil Hind (1st wave).

For AEW - operating onboard of Varyag and new carriers - I would prefere the Ka-31 Radar Picket Naval Helicopter.

For transport (carriing something between harbours and/or between different ships) a number of Z-8s should be in service to.

IT looks like someone in PLAN have been reading this thread … They covered everything except ASW helicopters… Now they only need to buy some more Ka-27s and they solved all problems…

But this participation, the defense minister said, calls for settlement of a number of legal issues and concluding an agreement on intellectual property protection is among them.

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Now is it just me or Russian defense minister seems to be little pisst off? Maybe they are not to happy with some Chinese projects based on Russian weapons?