PLAN Zubr Large Air Cushion Landing Craft

plawolf said:

Zubrs are way overkill for SCS.

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I have to agree with Plawolf here. The islands in question within the SCS are far too small to necessitate what is effectively a beach heavy assault amphibious craft. Any heavy weaponry stationed on such islands would be easily neutralised with an earlier bombardment (nowhere to hide such large equipment), should it ever come to that.

Zubrs would be......more fitting to the Taiwan scenario against extremely stiff resistance and well equipped enemy forces delivering missile/rocket attacks round the clock [hence the unusually heavy if not quite extreme amount of point defense systems on board the Zubr]. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

plawolf said:

Zubrs are way overkill for SCS.

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Skye_ZTZ_113 said:

I have to agree with Plawolf here. The islands in question within the SCS are far too small to necessitate what is effectively a beach heavy assault amphibious craft. Any heavy weaponry stationed on such islands would be easily neutralised with an earlier bombardment (nowhere to hide such large equipment), should it ever come to that.

Zubrs would be......more fitting to the Taiwan scenario against extremely stiff resistance and well equipped enemy forces delivering missile/rocket attacks round the clock [hence the unusually heavy if not quite extreme amount of point defense systems on board the Zubr]. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

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I don't know Zubrs are hydrofoil therefore can travel in shallow waters in the SCS from island to island. Making them very useful for replenishing supplies and personal.

Skye_ZTZ_113 said:

I have to agree with Plawolf here. The islands in question within the SCS are far too small to necessitate what is effectively a beach heavy assault amphibious craft. Any heavy weaponry stationed on such islands would be easily neutralised with an earlier bombardment (nowhere to hide such large equipment), should it ever come to that.

Zubrs would be......more fitting to the Taiwan scenario against extremely stiff resistance and well equipped enemy forces delivering missile/rocket attacks round the clock [hence the unusually heavy if not quite extreme amount of point defense systems on board the Zubr]. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

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I don't say they weren't overkill.. All I'm saying is I think you will see them used there.. If anything as troop transport, exercises etc.
Perhaps they have more nefarious intentions however last I check PLAN Is not at the imminent stage of Taiwan invasion so unless you know something I don't I think the odds of Zubrs being used in SCS in much higher than her landing on the Taiwanese beach.

Equation said:

I don't know Zubrs are hydrofoil therefore can travel in shallow waters in the SCS from island to island. Making them very useful for replenishing supplies and personal.

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Correction: Zubrs are hovercraft and don't need any water.

Skye_ZTZ_113 said:

I have to agree with Plawolf here. The islands in question within the SCS are far too small to necessitate what is effectively a beach heavy assault amphibious craft. Any heavy weaponry stationed on such islands would be easily neutralised with an earlier bombardment (nowhere to hide such large equipment), should it ever come to that.

Zubrs would be......more fitting to the Taiwan scenario against extremely stiff resistance and well equipped enemy forces delivering missile/rocket attacks round the clock [hence the unusually heavy if not quite extreme amount of point defense systems on board the Zubr]. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

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Yes, the Zubrs are quite the overkill in SCS. I´m thinking this is one of the reasons that China will most likely use them there. The same reason as US navy has Super carriers.

Intimidation.

The mere presence of a supercarrier or two can sometimes prevent problems. I´m thinking that China may have similar intentions with the Zubrs.

And sometimes things happens fast in SCS, so the high speed of Zubrs would be useful.

At one time an island in the Spratleys was controlled by the Philliphines. They had a number of marines stationed on the island. For some reason, all of the marines left the island for a short while.

Guess what they found when they came back? The Island was full of Chinese marines from a close by island.

As soon as the philliphine marines had left the Island, the Chinese moved in instead. If I´m not completely mistaken, this literary happened within minutes.

"They are leaving the island. Let´s go there. GO! GO! GO!"

The philliphines learned their lesson tough. ALWAYS keep personnel on the islands/reefs you claim. So this will most likely not happen again.

But it can be an example of how fast things could happen in SCS.

kwaigonegin said:

I don't say they weren't overkill.. All I'm saying is I think you will see them used there.. If anything as troop transport, exercises etc.
Perhaps they have more nefarious intentions however last I check PLAN Is not at the imminent stage of Taiwan invasion so unless you know something I don't I think the odds of Zubrs being used in SCS in much higher than her landing on the Taiwanese beach.

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I was only speaking hypothetically in terms of actual usage. Of course they are not actually preparing to enact ''dastardly'' plans to take over Taiwan, last time I checked heh. Anything more is pure speculation at this stage. I am of the opinion that the PLAN will continue using far less threatening crafts to resupply their SCS outposts/fortifications though granted, we are very likely to see the occasional Zubr 'pop up' every now and then.

Back OnTopic: It is true that certainly a great deal of practice drills will be required to familiarise the relevant operations personnel with their workings, as well to practice for any of the aforementioned scenarios. Their currently low numbers (only two confirmed iirc) would indicate consistency with PLAN's development/procurement philosophy to buy/build small numbers of a class and experiment/test out before upgrading and so on. They certainly don't have even close to nearly enough for a proper beach assault as it were. Perhaps if the situation worsened, though recent events seem to indicate that the PRC is willing to seriously consider putting heavy weapons such as a Zubr in the area. It would be an immensely poor move to actually use one in active combat though, short of an unprovoked attack on a PRC outpost....which seems highly implausible either way.

@Ronny S Again, due to the low numbers I'd argue that these are more of a 'contingency' part of the PLAN arsenal rather than intimidation. My knowledge of the SCS is rather limited so I can't really comment on that particular incident. I'll concede that if they permanently stationed one or two in the area it could be used for a quick relocation though.

kwaigonegin said:

I don't say they weren't overkill.. All I'm saying is I think you will see them used there.. If anything as troop transport, exercises etc.
Perhaps they have more nefarious intentions however last I check PLAN Is not at the imminent stage of Taiwan invasion so unless you know something I don't I think the odds of Zubrs being used in SCS in much higher than her landing on the Taiwanese beach.

Click to expand...

kwaigonegin said:

I don't say they weren't overkill.. All I'm saying is I think you will see them used there.. If anything as troop transport, exercises etc.
Perhaps they have more nefarious intentions however last I check PLAN Is not at the imminent stage of Taiwan invasion so unless you know something I don't I think the odds of Zubrs being used in SCS in much higher than her landing on the Taiwanese beach.

Click to expand...

The Zubrs were bought at a time when a war across the straits was a real possibility.

Now that things have calmed down, they have no immediate mission other than providing the PLAN with a powerful contingency option. But because there are only two in operation, maybe with another 2-4 to be built, the PLAN can't really be silly about where to base them.

The Zubrs, IMO, were not really intended for Taiwan proper, but rather for the ROC controlled outpost islands right on the Chinese coast - Jinmen and Mazu.

Taiwan uses these as FOPs and missile batteries, and they need to be taken before the PLAN could even think about forming a fleet to head towards Taiwan proper.

These islands are close, well within land based artillery range, and only have small garrisons, so a sustained artillery barrage followed up by a few Zubrs with CAS should be more than enough to take them, and take them quickly.

If China deployed the Zubrs elsewhere, they would be unable to be redeployed to take those islands if something sudden happened, and would thereby loose the primary reason for their existance.

Using them in the SCS is not only overkill, it is poorly suited and risky to do so.

Other than Taiping island, none of the other islands down there would warrant even a single Zubr. The standard marine complement on most PLAN FFGs and DDGs would be more than enough

Given the ranges involved, the Zubrs would need to be based on one of the existing or newly reclaimed islands to play any part in the SCS. That's putting a very big asset on a very small piece of real estate, within easy strike range of other countries.

Not a particularly smart thing to do, unless baiting someone to take a pot shot is the intent. But assuming that isn't the intent, basing Zubrs in the SCS could cause someone to miscalculate and start something no one wants.

Ronny S said:

Yes, the Zubrs are quite the overkill in SCS. I´m thinking this is one of the reasons that China will most likely use them there. The same reason as US navy has Super carriers.

Intimidation.
.....
At one time an island in the Spratleys was controlled by the Philliphines. They had a number of marines stationed on the island. For some reason, all of the marines left the island for a short while.

Guess what they found when they came back? The Island was full of Chinese marines from a close by island.

As soon as the philliphine marines had left the Island, the Chinese moved in instead. If I´m not completely mistaken, this literary happened within minutes.
...........

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I believe you are mistakenly mentioned China, but in fact it was Vietnam who took control of the island (Pugad) while the Philippine marines on a party for their commander birthday in a neighbour islands

here is from Wiki



"........ The "invasion" (occupation of the island) took place when all of the Philippine soldiers guarding the island of Pugad (Southwest Cay) left to attend to the birthday party of their commanding officer, who was based on the neighbouring Parola Island (Northeast Cay). The storm that day is also believed to have persuaded all of the soldiers to regroup temporarily on Parola island. A report[

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] also came out saying that South Vietnamese officials managed to send Vietnamese prostitutes to the birthday party to lure the Filipino soldiers guarding Pugad Island. The "gift" was said to be a "present" to the Philippine commander for his birthday, and as a move by South Vietnamese forces to befriend all Filipino soldiers guarding the Spratlys. Philippine soldiers did not expect that South Vietnam would resort to foul play since both the Philippines and South Vietnam, together with the United States, were allies in the . This tactic is believed[

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] to be the reason why South Vietnamese forces knew that the Filipino soldiers had left the island, an action that would usually be kept confidential ........."

A Zubr can be used for many things.

Clearly, they were built to be able to be assault vessels, carrying either three MBTs or ten IFV/APCs and 140 troops each...or a combination of those with larger numbers of troops.

They have a range of 300 miles at 55 knots...which means at 35 knots they would be able to go significantly further.

But, with a 400+ ton normal load, these vessels are capable of doing a lot of things other than pure assault or combat.

Three or four such vessels could serve a multitude of purposes for the PRC..while providing the pure combat capability if ever needed.

With the various bases that the Chinese are building, these vessels would be excellent for moving men and material and equipment from one to another. They could perform routine and regular patrols. They could show the flag and would allow the PLAN to maintain a fairly strong presence throughout the entire area at a relatively low cost...and always be able to call in heavier vessels if necessary.

I could see having one of these posted to specific island bases with their own patrol area...yet close enough to other bases so equipped to be mutually supportive if necessary...mainly for equipment, material, personnel and patrol.

I do not know that this is what the PLAN intends...but I do know that it would make great sense and that they would get a lot of utility out of the vessels in such a scenario.

Now...are their other uses for these?

Of course. Clearly the PLAN could also establish a flotilla or squadron of these to be equipped and trained for purely amphibious assault capability.

I am not sure how many in total the PLAN is going to acquire. Right now the minimum that the PLAN will acquire in total is four. Will they do more?

Time will tell.

They will be available for patrol in SCS and China can point out that they are not so used and say that is because of China's peaceful intents.