PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

[qimg]http://i51.tinypic.com/2m7adrn.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i52.tinypic.com/zmnsbm.jpg[/qimg]

that's clearly a song and taken from a while ago.

The PLAN is doing what the PLA has always done - make a compromise between what they want and what they could build.

For the PLAN to invest in such a large new ocean going SSK would indeed suggest a lack of confidence in the performance of its existing SSN design.

The new sub would likely form part of the escort package of any new PLAN carriers, so I would expected it to go to the Southern fleet.

If that is the case, then it would also indicate that the first gen of Chinese indigenous carriers will be conventionally powered, thus the use of SSKs would be less of a drag on the overall performance of any carrier battle group.

The PLAN will build a couple of each new successive generation of SSNs as test ships (much like they have done with their surface fleet) until they have reach a point where the performance of a particular class is deemed to be acceptable, at which point the PLAN will probably start mass production (as was the case with the 054A, Song/Yuan, 022 etc).

Whether this is a stopgap measure to fill the operational need of the Varyag or an indication of a lack of confidence in the PLAN regarding Chinese SSNs will probably only be answered based on how many and how fast these new SSKs are built.

If we see large numbers being built quickly, then that would probably indicated that the PLAN does not expect to be able to field a world-class SSN for at least the next decade.

If only a pair or so of the new sub is built, then it would be more likely that these are concept test beds that are also required to meet the operational requirements of the Varyag.

it doesn't work that way, SSK can't replace the long range usabilities of SSN. Think about the speed of SSK and the speed of a carrier group.

They are developing their SSN and SSK fleet at the same time.

I disagree; the PLAN has always taken evolutionary steps in new combatants, and the new SSK we've been seeing is just the further evolution of the Yuan, and will not fill SSN roles -- SSN's are always faster, and longer ranged; shoes even a ~4000 ton SSK can't fill. That being said I expect them to build more of this new SSK class, but I do not expect them to be escorting an aircraft carrier battle group or whatever -- in the end their range is simply too limited.

The fact that we haven't seen any new development in the SSN area is probably due to the high secrecy (nuclear subs are always more secretive; just remember how difficult it was to come across a pic of the 093 in the early 2000's), and the the difficulty of the steps they are taking to try and get something in the world class, 21st century generation alongside virginia and astute. It probably isnt as urgent as buliding new SSK's either, because we don't expect the PLAN to be going on CVBG patrols within this decade.

Regardless I expect to see pictures of the 095 starting to surface around 2015. Does anyone have any info on how it's going? Tphuang?

the first 095 should be launched already if we based on several previous pieces of evidences, but we probably won't see unveiling for a few more years. Until then, we will just continue to see more SSKs.

 

[sealordlawrence]

»Ø¸´: Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The Soviets built Tangos after the November class had been built, did that mean the Soviet Navy stopped SSN development? Neither is the PLAN going to stop SSN development either.

Very poor example, the Soviet naval construction programme was irrational, further more they finally stopped building the diesel-electric ocean-going submarines in the early 80s and focussed on SSN's.

 

[franco-russe]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Whether Soviet naval construction programme was irrational is a matter for argument, but that is a vast subject.

What is not arguable is that 1980 was the year when the first Soviet KILO class diesel submarine made its appearance. Since that time, a total of 54 KILO class (Project 877, and subsequently the improved Project 636) have been built, including 23 for the Soviet Navy and 31 for export. The latest unit, B-261 NOVOROSSIYSK for the Black Sea Fleet, was laid down at St-Petersburg as recently as 20 August 2010.

Two more are to be built for the Black Sea Fleet and six for Vietnam, so the KILO class will eventually number at least 62 units, making it one of the most succesful modern submarine types.

In addition, a new diesel submarine class, Project 677, was started by the Russian Navy. The first unit, B-585 SANKT-PETERBURG, was after much delay finally commssioned in the Baltic Fleet on 22 April 2010. Two more are under construction, and a total of six is likely to be in service by 2020.

So the statement that “furthermore they finally stopped building the diesel-electric ocean-going submarines in the early 80s and focussed on SSN's” is not entirely correct.

 

[Orthan]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

it doesn't work that way, SSK can't replace the long range usabilities of SSN. Think about the speed of SSK and the speed of a carrier group.

Perhabs china´s navy isnt planning to attack CBG with submarines. After all, chinese SSN probably are still quite noisy, even if we dont believe the DoD report that china´s most recent SSN (type 093 class), is as noisy as 1970s soviet victor III class

SSK are much cheaper to develop and maintain (and that leads to bigger numbers) and are quieter, even if their range and speed are inferior. Since PLAN will undoubtedly operate in the vicinity of china´s coast for the foreseeable future (specially taiwan and south china sea) and those navies dont have SSN, china´s focus on SSK wont be much of a hindrance.

I agree that they are still developing SSN. Its an important mil tech in the long term. But right now i think china´s priority are SSK

.

 

[sealordlawrence]

»Ø¸´: Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Whether Soviet naval construction programme was irrational is a matter for argument, but that is a vast subject.

What is not arguable is that 1980 was the year when the first Soviet KILO class diesel submarine made its appearance. Since that time, a total of 54 KILO class (Project 877, and subsequently the improved Project 636) have been built, including 23 for the Soviet Navy and 31 for export. The latest unit, B-261 NOVOROSSIYSK for the Black Sea Fleet, was laid down at St-Petersburg as recently as 20 August 2010.

Two more are to be built for the Black Sea Fleet and six for Vietnam, so the KILO class will eventually number at least 62 units, making it one of the most succesful modern submarine types.

In addition, a new diesel submarine class, Project 677, was started by the Russian Navy. The first unit, B-585 SANKT-PETERBURG, was after much delay finally commssioned in the Baltic Fleet on 22 April 2010. Two more are under construction, and a total of six is likely to be in service by 2020.

So the statement that ¡°furthermore they finally stopped building the diesel-electric ocean-going submarines in the early 80s and focussed on SSN's¡± is not entirely correct.

It is entirely correct. Both the Kilo and Sankt Petersburg class our not intended as a long range ocean going submarine, they are designed for considerably shorter range operations in places like the Black Sea and the Baltic and for inner layer defence of oceanic coastlines in relatively shallow waters.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Perhabs china´s navy isnt planning to attack CBG with submarines. After all, chinese SSN probably are still quite noisy, even if we dont believe the DoD report that china´s most recent SSN (type 093 class), is as noisy as 1970s soviet victor III class

SSK are much cheaper to develop and maintain (and that leads to bigger numbers) and are quieter, even if their range and speed are inferior. Since PLAN will undoubtedly operate in the vicinity of china´s coast for the foreseeable future (specially taiwan and south china sea) and those navies dont have SSN, china´s focus on SSK wont be much of a hindrance.

I agree that they are still developing SSN. Its an important mil tech in the long term. But right now i think china´s priority are SSK

.

The PLAN is going for a blue water navy, SSKs will be used for patrolling around the south china sea, but beyond that their use will be limited.

I think we're seeing more SSKs coming out because they are simply smaller, and easier to build whereas SSNs are obviously larger and more difficult. Any nuclear subs would be under high guard too, so we won't be able to get pictures like the Yuan and new SSK as easily -- though I think they would've stopped production of 093/094 by now, knowing they aren't up to scratch.
They're taking their time to make something quieter and more modern; 093 from most sources are stated as only quiet as the LA class.(regardless of what that ONI report said -- I believe it quite inaccurate)

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Perhabs china´s navy isnt planning to attack CBG with submarines. After all, chinese SSN probably are still quite noisy, even if we dont believe the DoD report that china´s most recent SSN (type 093 class), is as noisy as 1970s soviet victor III class

SSK are much cheaper to develop and maintain (and that leads to bigger numbers) and are quieter, even if their range and speed are inferior. Since PLAN will undoubtedly operate in the vicinity of china´s coast for the foreseeable future (specially taiwan and south china sea) and those navies dont have SSN, china´s focus on SSK wont be much of a hindrance.

I agree that they are still developing SSN. Its an important mil tech in the long term. But right now i think china´s priority are SSK

.

The role on ssn is extremely important in carrier operation. Even when china makes deployments to aden, I am pretty sure the ssn came along. The range and speed of ssn simply cannot be rivaled by even the largest ssk. That is why you see the british and americans go completely nuclear. I think that dod figure was based on old estimations from the 90s. It even said 093 is noisier than 094. There is no way that is the case. 093 might not be the greatest design but it is very important for the future of chinese blue water fleet. If they dont keep working on improving the safety and bowe level of their nuclear reactors, they will never be able to develop a world class ssn.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Does anyone remember the Gotland? The Royal Navy in wargames lost to one Swedish SSK. It was sinking ships left and right and the Royal Navy couldn't track it. An SSK in a defensive posture where it can sit there and run silent is probably really dangerous for an adversary that has to move into the area.

 

[franco-russe]

Re: »Ø¸´: Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

It is entirely correct. Both the Kilo and Sankt Petersburg class our not intended as a long range ocean going submarine, they are designed for considerably shorter range operations in places like the Black Sea and the Baltic and for inner layer defence of oceanic coastlines in relatively shallow waters.

The Soviets deployed primarily the KILO’s to the two oceanic fleets, the Pacific and Northern. Only one (experimental) is in the Black Sea, and two in the Baltic, of which for the training of foreign KILO crews. Why they transferred the second one, Hull 3 from Komsomolsk, to the Baltic in 1986 is not very clear, as the submarine is really to big for those shallow waters.

However, when you add the word "long-range" to your statement, it is entirely correct. Despite its size, the KILO is not a long-range submarine in the sense that the ZULU (Pr. 611), the FOXTROT (Pr. 641) or the TANGO (Pr. 641B) were. It is, as you say, for extended or forward coastal defence.

However, the Soviets did not stop building the TANGO because of nuclear submarines coming along. When the last TANGO was delivered in 1982, the Soviet Navy already possessed some 120 nuclear attack submarines (SSN/SSGN), so we are talking of something very different from today’s PLAN.

In many ways the PLAN is today where the Soviet Navy was in the early 1960’s, and they will follow generally the same policy, that is producing a large conventional submarine fleet for guarding the access to Chinese waters.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The role on ssn is extremely important in carrier operation. Even when china makes deployments to aden, I am pretty sure the ssn came along.

All the way past the indian ocean? Why would the PLAN want to send SSNs as escort for fighting pirates?
I'm sure the US would've detected the movements.