PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

Denis_469

New Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Good day all!
I'm from Russia and wish question about data china submarine. I'm made database submarine losses in my cite and have question about 1 incident with china submarine. In western sources in 1993 year 1 chinese submarine type 033 was sunk, but I can not find nothing about in russian or western sources. Can anyone talk me sunk submarine or not? If sunk, so what reasons was and detail sunk and losses?
If interesting database, so you can see:
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Best regards.
 

sydneylaide

New Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The news is about 093 and 094, because it delibrately says "two types of new generation submarines", and "missle launching tubes". We know that Chinese sub launched anti-ship missles are fired normally from torpedo tubes.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

With a good submarine driver, a lot of skill, and some luck, it may have a chance. But against a well-trained and equipped opponent, the chances diminish.

This is the value of the dipping sonar helicopter. They take time to do their work, all ASW is pretty painstaking, but once they are on top of a sub painting it with active sonar, the sub is essentially naked to the world. You have very accurate bearing and range, there is no problem getting your partner directly over the target to launch torpedos. There isn't any sub made that can out-dive or outrun a MK-50 that is dropped directly overhead. No, it's not a big, long range MK-48 ADCAP, but at close range it's is effective. The warhead can get through double hulls.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

that's not my point, with all the modern ASW equipments available, what are the chances of a sub getting within a torpedo range. if they were to fire missiles from a greater distance they'd have a better chance.

The people who know the answer to that question are well paid to keep that knowledge to themselves, shared only with selected people on a need to know basis.
During the time I served, the tactic was to proactively find and sink enemy subs. That meant knowing their positions at all times during peacetime. SOSUS and intensive P-3 patrols, along with diligent allies, made this possible. Our preferred method was not to wait for the Soviet subs to come to us, but to hunt them down first before they could strike, keep them fully occupied defending themselves with no time to look for trouble sinking our carriers. Today we use SURTAS rather than SOSUS, and are developing undersea robots like that thing from iRobot I linked to last week and big UAV's to allow persistent patrolling.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

One word for you, Gothland.

There's theories and assumptions and there's facts.

You also have created the age old spear and shield dilema with the usn claiming that their subs are undetectable and also claiming that their asw can defeat subs easily.

Ever pit the two against each other and u will put a lie to one of those claims.

The usn has had much success hunting old noisey soviet subs in the cold, quiet and empty atlantic. Model deseal electric boats in the warm busy pacific is a completely different ball game.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

One word for you, Gothland.

There's theories and assumptions and there's facts.

You also have created the age old spear and shield dilema with the usn claiming that their subs are undetectable and also claiming that their asw can defeat subs easily.

Ever pit the two against each other and u will put a lie to one of those claims.

The usn has had much success hunting old noisey soviet subs in the cold, quiet and empty atlantic. Model deseal electric boats in the warm busy pacific is a completely different ball game.

Which is why the USN leased HMS Gotland from the Swedish Navy for two years. It was originally to be leased for only one year, but the various studies and exercises seemed to very valuable to the USN and the lease was renewed for a second year. The results of the studies conducted on that sub remain classified however.
 

Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Between 2005 to 2007 during US Navy/Swedish navy war games, the Swedish Gotland diesel submarine was very effective in attacking US Los Angeles subs and at least one carrier fleet (
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). The Swedish Gotland even won against the US Navy on US-mapped territory. The Gotland isn't the best diesel submarine, and diesel subs and nuclear subs continue to improve with no end in sight.

From reading military sites and corporate news, submarine designers are planning to greatly enhance submarines with:

* Unmanned underwater vehicles for a variety of functions
* Long, tubular extensions for surface espionage and other surface functions
* Enhancing teamwork between surface fleets and submersible fleets. The sub fleets will surface near or within surface fleets when it needs oxygen, supplies, a break, or to exchange data. Then the sub fleets will go under water and perform some lone wolf missions.

Subs are also improving the stealth of their:
* Size, shape, and color
* Their aerodynamics (you know what I mean)
* Heat signature from engineering inefficiency and expelling hot/warm particles.
* Magnetic waves
* Electro-magnetic emissions
* Sound/sonar features
* Surfacing technologies with the main ship plus with UUVs, and small devices extended from very long tubes

Subs are advancing technologies and tactics involving:
* Laying still on mountainous sea/ocean floor
* Laying still on sea/ocean valleys
* Taking advantage of bad weather
* AIP and other technologies for enhanced underwater endurance
* Working with friendly surface fleets (incl. aircraft) for resting/resupply, protection, and data exchange.
* Enhanced torpedoes and missiles (more stealthy, expanded range, augmented movement patterns, increased intelligence, improved accuracy, and intensified damage)
* Survivability against attacks


The Gotland war games humbled the US Navy, but the US Navy is NOT sitting still. The US Navy has developed solutions against subs based on the P-3/P-8/fixed-wing-reconnaisance. No offense to helicopter crews, but I read some US Navy open-source stuff, and the US Navy favors its fixed-wing recon to track submarines. The recon helicopters reinforce the fixed-wing recon, but the fixed-wing recon is the foundation. FWR can fly farther and faster than helicopters, FWR have more people/brains, the FWR have a greater variety of more powerful sensors, and the FWR have MUCH longer range sensors. However, the FWR can't hover over one spot like recon helicopters, require larger airbases, and are more expensive to design, build, operate, maintain, fix, and lose. FWR and recon helicopters are MANY TIMES more effective with the support of friendly air dominance. Without friendly air dominance, FWR's effectiveness drops greatly.

The fixed-wing recon (FWR) is improving its ability to sense subs or their UUV and tubular extensions at the surface and under various waters. The FWR can reliably track communication signals (whether intentional or unavoidable) from many submersible vehicles (whether manned or unmanned) because they eventually give off signals for communication. The FWR are also developing enhanced sensors for temperature differences between the natural world and man-made objects. The same goes for tracking differences between natural and man-made things in the form of magnetic waves, electromagnetic emissions, and sonar reflections.

The US Navy is advancing its own manned and unmanned submersible vehicles fleet.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, the US Navy is improving the skill of anti-sub personnel by requiring steady, frequent, and various war games involving subs.

It seems all major navies in the world are essentially augmenting their aerial, surface, and underwater technologies and skills. This includes the US, Europe, Russia, China, South Korea, Japan, and a few other nations.

In other words, the unbreakable shield/armor and the unstoppable sword/spear/axe/bow-and-arrow is a myth. Each opposing army tries to have both the unbreakable protection and the unstoppable attack. Offense and defense are constantly developing technologies and skills to outdo each other. Once one side stops or fails to counter the other side, then the former side loses. It's a never ending game of paper-rock-scissor.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Which is why the USN leased HMS Gotland from the Swedish Navy for two years. It was originally to be leased for only one year, but the various studies and exercises seemed to very valuable to the USN and the lease was renewed for a second year. The results of the studies conducted on that sub remain classified however.

Which just goes to show that the USN's ASW capacity isn't the all powerful, all knowing, infallible thing you been drumming it up to be is it?

Finding out you have a shortcoming is a very different thing to being able to address it adequately.

The studies were only completed in 2007, and it will take time to compile the results and draw actionable lessons from it. It will take even longer to turn those lessons into new tactics never mind equipment.

On the other hand, sub design and tactics are evolving and improving as well.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Which just goes to show that the USN's ASW capacity isn't the all powerful, all knowing, infallible thing you been drumming it up to be is it?

Finding out you have a shortcoming is a very different thing to being able to address it adequately.

The studies were only completed in 2007, and it will take time to compile the results and draw actionable lessons from it. It will take even longer to turn those lessons into new tactics never mind equipment.

On the other hand, sub design and tactics are evolving and improving as well.

The USN historically has been very capable in learning lessons very quickly. They are taking the time to develop new tactics and capabilities at a very rapid rate to address shortcomings as they are spotted. The USN now has more avenues to continue practising with conventional subs, such as with Australia or Canada.
 
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