PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Infra_Man99]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Yeah, I was guilty of somewhat putting words in Ambi's mouth, but, in ONE of Ambi's postings, he was sort of describing anti-sub helicopters as having an easy time defeating a sub. He talked about helicopters with dipping sonars supported by S-3B/P-3/whatever-EM-sensing-planes and sonobuoys (active and passive). He said this system could clearly defeat a submarine without pointing out this system's complexitites, and he ignored dealing with multiple combatants.

He compared a team consisting of at least one land-based airfield, at least 2 destroyers/cruisers or 1 aircraft carrier, multiple aircrafts, probably satellite communications, probably depth charges, and maybe other supporting platforms against 1 submarine. It's like someone saying this about the NFL: "That team has a good wide reciever, but all we gotta do is get a good quarterback, a good coaching staff, a good medical and fitness team, a good offensive team, and a defensive team. Then we'll be able to crush that opposing wide reciever. Piece of cake." I am staring at this guy, and wondering if he being Captain Obvious or maybe his knowledge is too much for me to grasp.

I replied to Ambi 'cuz I wanted to clarify the degree of difficulty the situation actually was, and Ambi responded with clarification using interesting stories.

 

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

i'm sure MK-50 is much improved compared to MK-46 in processing, acquisition and most important kinetic performance, but it still simply can't compare against something like ADCAP which can go at 55 knots for 20 nm (i assume the real figure is better than this). Gary on DT was talking a while ago about the processing power of CBASS, which is apparently leaps ahead of even ADCAP in target acquisition. I'm not saying MK-50 can't be used in ways to hit a modern nuclear submarine, but it just has certainly limitations due to its size.

As for helos with dipping sonar, I though it was more widespread, because we even have pictures of Z-9C with dipping sonar and it's a relatively small helo.

There have been great stride in miniaturization. The sonar reeling equipment in an SH-3 was quite large, as tall as the cabin, and heavy The transducer was also large. Then there were two senso's in back working sonobuoys and the tactical plot with the co-pilot. I'm sure automation has made at least one of the senso positions redundant. I have to wonder how independent of the ship a Z-9C is, and what the performance of it's sonar is. It would be interesting to know.
The old SH-60B, with no dipping sonar, was so crowded inside there was literally no room for a fourth crew member to sit, unless it was to sit cross legged on the floor. If a litter was brought on board, the swimmer or medic would have to stand directly over top of the litter. That version of the H-60 carried the same tactical computer as an FFG carried, and the aircraft was down if the air conditioning did not work. I would love a chance to see an MH-60R.
Btw, Coast Guard pilots would complain about the lack of room in their HH-65 Dolphins, the Z-9's kissin' cousin. There was just about enough room for a litter, a medic, hoist operator and the rescue basket back there. The Z-9C must be one crowded helo.

 

[sydneylaide]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Today Chinese official media reported that two types of Chinese new generation nuclear submarines have achieved full operational capabilities.

The new nuclear submarines were commisioned in 2006 in a ceromony presented by President Hu Jintao.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I believe the article is this one
- It says in the fall of 2009, China indigeneously designed new submarine completed deep dive, high speed sailing, deep sea launching torpedo and other testings and exercises. All of the performances reached the design and combat requirements. This submarine has now achieve full operational capability.
In december of 2006, President Hu was their to officially commission the first of its class into the navy (this pretty much indicates its 093). It also said that Hu inspected 2 submarines that day (indicating the pair entered service at the same time).
It says that the new submarine has high displacement, large diamter and can dive deep, so needs new type of tough steel that can withstand the pressure in deep sea. Talks about the work did to achieve that.

August of a particular year, the lead ship of 093 conducted its first Land-based joint trial. It uses rotary main converter unit, which is core equipment for the safety of the submarine. Submarine's new electric system uses automated control for the first time, so they proposed the more advanced static main converter unit

The new submarine project is huge. It spans 22 provinces, 7 large corporations and 20 design institutes and 500 firms paricipated in the production.

has a bunch of stories on it.

国产新型潜艇完成系列试验全面形成作战能力
　新华网沈阳11月19日电 (乔燕飞、姜毅、司彦文、陈万军)2009年金秋，人民海军潜艇部队传出喜讯：我国自主研制的某新型潜艇圆满完成极限深潜、水下高速、深海发射战雷等系列试验和训练考核，所有性能指标均达到设计和作战要求，标志我国新型潜艇全面形成作战能力。
　　新型潜艇的诞生，凝聚着海军驻某厂军代表的心血和汗水。他们，用忠诚和热血托起共和国钢铁“蓝鲸”，从船台驶向大洋。
　　使命：为了新型潜艇的诞生，冲刺在新的起跑线上
　　2006年12月的一天，中共中央总书记、国家主席、中央军委主席胡锦涛，亲自为某新型潜艇首艇入列授旗。
　　授旗仪式结束后，胡锦涛先后登上两艘新型潜艇视察，深入到每一个战位，仔细询问装备的质量和性能，他反复叮嘱艇上官兵，要学好管好用好新装备，让新装备尽快形成战斗力。
　　世纪之交，经党中央、中央军委批准，中国新型潜艇正式开工建造。
　　发展新型潜艇，是人民海军转型发展的重要步骤。
　　历史选择了他们——海军驻某厂军代表室承担起监造新型潜艇的神圣使命。
　　新型潜艇必定是高新技术时代的产儿。生产线需要重新建立，工艺、设备、材料等需要重新研制，人员需要重新培训……一切都站在崭新的起跑线上。
　　同样，驻某厂军代表室也站在了新的起跑线上。从10多所军队和地方院校分配到代表室的40名博士、硕士和本科生，走上了新型潜艇监造岗位。
　　面对新型潜艇涉及的1000多个专业和技术门类，年轻的军代表们向一个个技术堡垒发起了冲刺：“恶补”专业知识，10天拿下一个专业；熟悉图纸资料，他们时常通宵达旦，双眼布满血丝；向技术人员和工人师傅求教，工厂三班倒，他们连轴转……就这样，新一代军代表仅用3个月就进入角色，半年就独立担负起监造任务。
　　春节刚过，新型潜艇动力组件安装正在进行。
　　指挥席上坐满了有关领导、专家，通过视频系统，他们注视着组件安装的每一个细节。
　　第10组件开始装填。
　　设计人员、现场施工人员和总装厂专业检验员相继确认：燃料组件编号、坐标与图纸上的标识完全一致。
　　作为3人检验小组的成员，25岁的军代表刘海鹏却独自留了下来。他反复告诫自己：细心，细心，再细心！
　　动力组件多达数十组，内部结构、成分各不相同，但从外表很难进行区别。刘海鹏根据工作原理推算：“10号组件不应该在这个位置！”
　　现场指挥员当即下令：作业暂停！刘海鹏再三比对后提出：“图纸标识错误！”有关部门立即组织对图纸、组件、装载位置重新审查确认，得出结论：“刘代表是对的！”
　　新型潜艇总设计师在第一时间得知此事，当即打电话到现场：“一名年轻军代表能发现如此重大问题，了不起！”刘海鹏为此荣立二等功。
　　潜艇建造是一个庞大而复杂的系统工程。军代表要承担从设计到建造、试验全过程的检验验收。
　　副总代表孟凡明向记者介绍了这样一串数字：一艘新型潜艇从开工建造到交付部队，军代表需要查验的项目超过10万个，验收的技术文件、图纸资料、计算数据能装满一卡车。
　　总体组7名军代表要检查验收项目达1.5万个，涉及总体布置、船舶性能、船体结构、舾装防腐、减振降噪5大专业50门学科；轮机组9名同志要分管66个大系统、732台套设备；电子武备组仅设备就要对应几十个厂家……
　　军代表吴汪洋23岁就独立承担潜艇验收任务。2008年9月，他在施工现场督查“弹筒外支环”机械加工，经过测量发现，工人划线时将加工位置划高了。万一加工错了，将影响导弹发射筒的基准，整个弹筒就要报废，还将带来一系列严重后果。由于发现及时，吴汪洋受到嘉奖。
　　跨越：为了新型潜艇高性能，面对风险不言放弃
　　新型潜艇代表了现代中国科学技术和工业发展的最高水平，实现了“从有到优”的历史性跨越：广泛采用新技术、新工艺、新材料、新设备，系统更完备、性能更先进、作战反应更快、静音性能更好、攻击能力更强。
　　军代表是引领这一跨越的主导者。
　　新型潜艇吨位大、直径大、潜深大，需要采用能承受深海高强度压力的新型钢。
　　大家都把目光聚焦在我国最新研制成功的特殊钢材上。拉伸、弯曲、抗裂性试验；硬度、精度、密度检验；断口检查、化学分析……
　　然而，令人头疼的是：正是由于这种高强度钢“宁折不弯”的“钢性”，焊接十分困难。
　　第一次焊接试验，检验合格率竟然不足10%！
　　第二次、第三次……相继多次试验，合格率始终在低水平徘徊。而新型潜艇焊接合格率要求必须是100%！
　　难题屡攻不下，让大家感到了采用这种高强度钢的巨大风险，贸然采用，如果焊接存在瑕疵，后果无法想象。“到底要不要用这种钢？”
　　军代表和建造者们众志成城：“采用高强度钢决不放弃！关键技术不突破，潜艇就谈不上‘换型’，后续艇也将受影响！”
　　军代表室与工厂一起专门立项研究，开始了一步步艰难的工艺探索。
　　全厂挑选80名焊工集中培训，在苛刻条件下进行模型试验。数九严冬，气温降至零下20摄氏度，军代表李铜桥、陈爱志、孙谦、李宁、张海宽、范名琦，和工人师傅一起，迎着强烈的电焊弧光做焊接试验，眼睛灼伤了，脸颊冻肿了，脚趾冻烂了，可他们的决心比高强度钢还硬。
　　焊丝、气体、工艺全面创新。从焊丝软硬、气体配比、焊接速度到焊接部位的“预热”“后热”，从手工焊接到自动焊接，连续奋战37天，历经上百次失败，他们终于摸透了高强度钢的“脾性”，突破焊接关键技术，并实现了工艺稳定性。经多种先进手段对焊缝进行表面探伤和内部探伤，合格率均达到100%！
　　在新型潜艇的研制建造过程中，军代表参与了100多项重大技术难题攻关，在10多项核心技术领域取得重大突破，并使之得到应用。
　　这年8月，新型潜艇首艇陆上联调试验。艇上沿用的“旋转式主变流机组”，是保证潜艇安全的核心设备。联调中发现，设备特性不稳定，且不能在应急状态下手动使用。担任检验组长的军代表裴峰坚持认为：新艇电力系统第一次采用自动化控制，必须同时保证能够应急启动。着眼新型潜艇的需要，他力主采用更先进的“ 静止式主变流装置”。
　　这，在当时还是个“世界性难题”。在军代表室领导的支持下，裴峰参加了攻关小组，经过上百个日夜攻关，终于研制成功“静止式主变流装置”，这一全新设备使新型潜艇应急动力系统的先进性、可靠性大幅提升。
　　新型潜艇是名符其实的信息化潜艇。电子设备密密匝匝，性能纷繁复杂。军代表室牵头成立“ 专家组”，对各类上艇的电子设备进行模拟磁场试验，建立电磁波辐射“超差评估”新模式，并逐一分析周围设备的抗干扰能力。经过计算和试验，设计出信息设备互相兼容的理想方案，实行设备、系统、总体三级控制，成功化解了高技术带来的新风险，确保了新型潜艇信息化优势和综合作战效能的发挥。
　　责任：代表国家签字验收，视潜艇的质量如生命
　　总代表柴小文，在潜艇监造岗位工作20年，参与了我国第一代潜艇的研制监造，如今是监造新型潜艇的领军人物。他深知军代表在检验报告书上落笔签字的分量：“我们是代表国家检验验收”。
　　质量，是潜艇的生命，也是军代表的生命。每一艘潜艇的诞生，从一块钢板，一条焊缝，一个阀门，一个螺栓，军代表们都要亲手过三关，不放过一丝一毫的隐患。
　　“爬舱”，是军代表的“基本功”。潜艇大小舱室上百个，每个舱底角落都洒着他们辛勤的汗水。
　　“越难钻的地方，越是‘工艺可达性’检验的重点。”总体组组长李宁刻意解释：不是“钻”而是“爬”，必须“四肢着地”。双层耐压壳体夹缝，跟抽屉差不多，只能平趴着进去，倒趴着出来，被卡在里面出不来是常有的事。一次，军代表张能上午9点爬进去，下午3点才出来，因虚脱差点窒息，被拖出来时，胳膊、膝盖都磨破了皮……
　　李宁粗略算了一下：一条艇干下来，军代表“爬舱”总长度超过400公里，相当于10个马拉松匍匐前进！
　　“潜艇无小事”。再小的细节也要较真。有一次，船厂“告状”：设备安装完了，军代表张巍却不同意验收。事情“僵”在一个插头上。张巍发现，由于电缆铺设时走向不好，插头费力才能插入插座。他说：“这样容易折断，必须重新安装！”
　　质量问题一定要找到原因。军代表徐金良发现稳压器紧固件力矩不达标，让设备厂3次返工。达标后，徐金良仍不罢休，坚持要找出原因。他和工厂技术人员一起，对螺栓螺母螺纹尺寸逐一测量，逐一做化学成分分析，逐一做力学性能检验，终于查明“超差”原因，使后续产品的质量得到了保证。
　　新型潜艇工程浩大，全国22个省市、7大行业集团、20个设计单位、500多家制造厂参与建造。面对企业改制、市场经济的新环境，军代表室旗帜鲜明地坚持“国家安全至高无上、装备建设质量第一”，发挥军方主导作用，不畏艰难搞好协调，推动军、厂、所大协作，确保建造质量。
　　动力装置控制设备多，接口有上千个，参加设计单位众多，各自给出的接口不统一、不匹配。担任主任审图师的军代表柳志忠，与各设计部门反复沟通，坚持标准，统一电压、电流接口；他审图中还发现，有的单位为了容易设计和制作，都放大了设备尺寸，使潜艇控制室十分拥挤。他又与设计人员一起，对控制系统每台设备逐一进行研究，统一规定尺寸，并对控制室布置进行优化。控制系统联调，提前1个月完成。
　　忠诚：青春承载光荣与梦想，热血铸就潜艇“龙骨”
　　在潜艇所有试验中，要数极限深潜最为凶险莫测。
　　总代表柴小文、副总代表孟凡明、陈爱志等14人义无反顾，参加了新型潜艇两型首艇的极限深潜试验。
　　军代表王海声在深潜前1周体检，发现肝部长了个5厘米大小的肿块，初步诊断为血管瘤。他毅然做出抉择：“先深潜，后手术！”
　　潜艇深潜复查，每一个舱室，每一台设备，每一根电缆，每一条焊缝，他们检查、试验都超过6遍！
　　深潜中艇体会受压变形。通海管路主循环水系统的“波纹管”一旦爆裂，每秒钟就会有大量海水涌入舱内，瞬间造成艇毁人亡惨剧。经预潜试验和计算，发现“ 波纹管”压缩变形呈线性变化，当下潜到极限深度时，可能逼近甚至突破它的承受极限。“一定要确保万无一失！”总代表柴小文带领马俊等人反复计算、验证，采取重压“转移”措施，成功化解安全隐患。
　　我国新型潜艇深潜试验圆满成功！
　　汗水洒船台，热血铸“蓝鲸”。
　　副总代表孟凡明在试验现场一呆就是13个月；军代表王海声持续22个月在外地参加航行试验，海上130多天出满勤，一个航次不落……
　　“星期六保证不休息，星期日休息不保证”，这是军代表长年累月加班的写照。
　　从新型潜艇开工的那天起，军代表们平均加班时间相当于3年的正常工作量。
　　2004年春节前，首艇主泵电机出现故障。军代表室公告板上随即出现了5个大字“此事无春节”！农历除夕下午和初一一早，唐耀阳、徐晓明先后登上火车赶往生产厂家，现场拆解主泵电机，分析原因，从初一干到初六，直到故障排除。
　　10年来的每一个春节，军代表只放假2天。
　　张海宽的妻子在怀孕6个月时检查出患有妊娠高血压症。在海上执行任务的张海宽，直到妻子临产前一天才赶回来。新生儿只有1800克，医生告知：孩子有7天重度危险期。然而第5天，张海宽又跟艇出海了。如今孩子落下了脑部残疾，3岁多了还不会说话。
　　即便如此，军代表们依然无怨无悔地挚爱着他们的事业。军代表路海晋对他当初放弃某公司高薪录用的选择倍感自豪：“新型潜艇世人瞩目，而亲手参与建造潜艇的又能有几人？”
　　新型潜艇遨游大洋，负载着军代表的光荣与梦想：用热血青春筑起共和国坚固的水下长城！

 

[pla101prc]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

stupid question here...how useful are torpedoes on subs nowadays?i thought its all about sub-launched anti-ship missiles now.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

stupid question here...how useful are torpedoes on subs nowadays?i thought its all about sub-launched anti-ship missiles now.

Let me tell you a story regarding anti-ship missiles versus heavyweight torpedoes:

The CO of a surface ship was once asked by a young submariner why we never practised being hit by a torpedo.

He very reasoned reply? "Son, why do you want to practice being dead?"

The fact is we have a damn good chance of defeating an inbound missile and even if we don't we can survive a hit and continue the fight if we do the job right. There is no surviving a heavy weight torpedo.

Don't believe me? See this:

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A torpedo will split most surface warships in half. A missile will at best punch a small hole in the side of the ship.

 

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

stupid question here...how useful are torpedoes on subs nowadays?i thought its all about sub-launched anti-ship missiles now.

Consider USS Stark sailed home under it's own power after eating a pair of Exocet missiles. Here is what a single MK-48 ADCAP does to a frigate.

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Here is what three Harpoon hits looks like

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This Spruance required two MK-48 hits to break the bow off. Even still it does not sink!

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[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Cool Harpoon video. Notice the very low cruise altitude.

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A development of Harpoon with a multi-mode seeker and much greater range. Note again the low altitude it flies in at.

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[pla101prc]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

that's not my point, with all the modern ASW equipments available, what are the chances of a sub getting within a torpedo range. if they were to fire missiles from a greater distance they'd have a better chance.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

that's not my point, with all the modern ASW equipments available, what are the chances of a sub getting within a torpedo range. if they were to fire missiles from a greater distance they'd have a better chance.

With a good submarine driver, a lot of skill, and some luck, it may have a chance. But against a well-trained and equipped opponent, the chances diminish.