PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[snake65]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That cuts both ways, limiting the effectiveness of the sensors on the submarine to the same degree they degrade those on the surface ships and helicopters.

Sure. The difference is that no surface ship has the silencing level of a modern sub and no helicopter has sensors comparable to a sub. And both surface ships helicopters are limited to stay on surface/near surface, further limiting their detecting range.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Sure. The difference is that no surface ship has the silencing level of a modern sub and no helicopter has sensors comparable to a sub. And both surface ships helicopters are limited to stay on surface/near surface, further limiting their detecting range.

Surface ships do have a significant level of silencing, and ways to mask their noise signatures. The Prairie Masker system is one such system that can mask the engine and propeller noise so that it sounds virtually identical to rainfall.

Furthermore, shipborne helicopters work in tandem with surface ships to find, track, and destroy enemy submarines. Their sensors work in conjunction with the sensors onboard the mothership, and serves as a way to reduce the risks to the surface ship by increasing the distance between the ship and the enemy submarine.

 

[snake65]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Surface ships do have a significant level of silencing, and ways to mask their noise signatures. The Prairie Masker system is one such system that can mask the engine and propeller noise so that it sounds virtually identical to rainfall.

Furthermore, shipborne helicopters work in tandem with surface ships to find, track, and destroy enemy submarines. Their sensors work in conjunction with the sensors onboard the mothership, and serves as a way to reduce the risks to the surface ship by increasing the distance between the ship and the enemy submarine.

Sound isolation devices are most effective when properly matched to machine characteristics (which is not the case in many of the surface ships, unlike subs) and when both the machine and device are properly maintained.
Unwanted noise can severely limit a ship's overall ASW capability, both active and passive. A lack of understanding or inattention on the part of ship's personnel can negate the effect of installed quiet ship features.

During ASW operations, there is no instantaneous way of determining if the airflow rates are accurate at any given time. Improper Prairie/Masker airflow rates are an ASW mission degrade.

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

That cuts both ways, limiting the effectiveness of the sensors on the submarine to the same degree they degrade those on the surface ships and helicopters.

The advantage would go to the one with the most experience in the region.

Also, the much larger sensors in the submarine are far better collecting lower frequency sound waves which travel much farther in water. There is a direct correlation between sensor array size vs. how low the sound frequency of detection. Frequency determines rate of attenuation.

 

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Sure. The difference is that no surface ship has the silencing level of a modern sub and no helicopter has sensors comparable to a sub. And both surface ships helicopters are limited to stay on surface/near surface, further limiting their detecting range.

A pair of dipping sonar helicopters are a submarine's worst enemy. Modern dipping sonars will reach any depth modern subs can operate at. I flew SH-3 Sea Pigs for a time. No, helicopter sonars do not have the range of a submarine or surface ship sonars, although the newest systems used in the MH-60 are science fiction compared to what I had to use, but the helo has a few virtues of it's own. Number one is mobility, I could quickly lay a very precise sonobuoy pattern on the sea, a mixture of passive and active sonobuoys, that would allow me to triangulate the positon of the sub to a point. We had a data link that fed us data from surface ships and could share sonobuoy freqs with the Hoover ( S-3B ) or a P-3. Once you triangulated your datum down to a small enough triangle ( how small is classified, sorry ) you put a sonar in the water and listen. You won't get any range information using it in a passive mode, but you can refine your bearing to the target. With two or more helos dipping you can bring the datum down in size. Helos take turns closing in on where your data indicates the enemy sub is. It's tag team. When your data indicates a helo is within range, you "go hammer", activating the active sonar. Now you have range in addition to bearing. Keep in mind the sub can hear every bit of this activity, including the Hoover and any P-3's up there. Heck, they can sometimes hear the sonobuoys hitting the water. They know they are being hunted, but you have the advantage of numbers and mobility. If the sub tries to go to fast the game is up, so they try to make subtle heading and depth changes hoping to hide under a thermal layer or sneak out one side of your net, if time permits or you are sloppy. Of course the helo can lower the sonar into the same thermal layer( you should already have sonobuoys listening and pinging different thermal layers ), but you have the advantage of a network of sonobuoys and dipping sonars in the water all around the sub. That active sonar is very demoralizing to the crew of the sub, they know they are naked to their attackers.
Once a helo has gone active, the game is pretty much up. You will have accurate enough bearing and range information for your partner to fly over the sub streaming the MAD bird. When the MAD indicates, you drop torpedos. A pair of dipping sonar helos with crews who know their business is assuredly a submarine's worst enemy.

 

[Infra_Man99]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Helicopters don't make submarines outdated. No decent navy in the world makes this claim. Ambi, sometimes you're very informative, sometimes you're full of dung. This time, you are full of dung.

I'm just a fan of military information, but NOWHERE have I found respectable proof that helicopters easily defeat subs, reliably neutralize subs, or are guarantees against subs. Yeah, I have checked out some company advertisements and some sailors on message boards talking about how big of a fish they caught, but all this hype hasn't stopped the production and development of submarines for the US navy, the European navies, the Russian navy, the South Korean navy, Japan's navy, and China's navy. I have read how helicopters and airplanes can be used to defeat subs or to help defeat subs, but they aren't anti-sub guarantees.

In addition, comparing 2 or more surface combatants against 1 submarine is not always the battle. There could be 2 surface combatants against 2 subs, or 2 vs 3, 3 surface combatants vs 1 sub and 2 surface combatants, or 4 surface combatants vs 2 subs with 4 fighter jets, or a whole battle group vs another battle group, and so forth. You claim to possess lots of naval experience, yet you easily forgot about the value of teamwork amongst people, tools, and machines.

In a large battle space, things could get very lost.

However, maybe you're right and way ahead of your time, and all these navy commanders are wasting lots of taxpayers' money on submarines.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

another thing to consider is that helos carry much lighter torpedoes than submarines. So against a modern nuclear submarine, it might not be able to catch up to that submarine.

 

[lcloo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

A lone sub operating with-out anti-air cover is in greater danger of being hunted down, but if it is part of a fleet with long range SAM cover from destroyer stationed some distance away, or that the sub is equiped with under-water launched SAM, then battle can go either way.

The collision of British and French nuke subs in the Atlantic ocean some times ago shows that it is difficult to detect a sub even at extreme short distance.

 

[plawolf]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Typical western military fanboism.

"I put by either battlegroup against any one of your assets and we win, therefore my battlegroup is best"

That proves absolutely nothing.

 

[maozedong]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I don't know where this water located, this Yuan looks like new one and the water close to some place like ship yard.
I guess that's Wuhan.