PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well, yes and no. Some torpedos have ranges in the tens of kilometers, but those variable dept sonars have extremely long tethers too. They have to be able to go as deep as the deepest diving subs to penetrate the thermal layers. The MH-60R has 450 meters of cable on it's sonar reel, and it's a helo. The destroyer will have more.
You have no idea what the sonar team on that destroyer heard, or rather saw on their waterfall display, or what their threat library was telling them. A passive sonar will give you direction information but not distance. That has to be judged by a skilled operator. Only an active sonar gives you range and direction. Btw, it was not unheard of for submarines to run up the rear of another sub underwater during the cold war, for the same reason. Last, it is not a war, so a Chinese sub can approach a US ship and there is nothing the US can do about it in international waters. That does ...

Not really nothing the US can do. In peace time, surface ships has been known to force the subs to surface when they get too close.
Of course, with limited information, there're many possible explanations.
But the collision suggests proximity and lack of awareness on the ship, so I'd still think the sub being undetected is more likely.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Not really nothing the US can do. In peace time, surface ships has been known to force the subs to surface when they get too close.
Of course, with limited information, there're many possible explanations.
But the collision suggests proximity and lack of awareness on the ship, so I'd still think the sub being undetected is more likely.

Care to show us an example of a warship forcing another nation's sub to the surface? There were certainly times in the cold war when the USN or RN parked a frigate on a Soviet sub and harassed it with active sonar until the carrier passed by ( that usually makes the point ), but I'm not aware of any navy forcing someone else's sub to the surface. There was an incident a couple of years ago where two Japanese DD's harassed a submerged Chinese sub with active sonar for something like 50 hours straight, but again the sub was not "forced" to surface. The two DD's and their helicopters made their point and then left.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Not really nothing the US can do. In peace time, surface ships has been known to force the subs to surface when they get too close.
Of course, with limited information, there're many possible explanations.
But the collision suggests proximity and lack of awareness on the ship, so I'd still think the sub being undetected is more likely.

It takes a VERY long time to pull the entire set out of the water; you are fighting against drag from the forward motion of the ship, and from the drogue on the end.

It's very difficult to detect how far back the sub was for the submarine operator unless multiple ships were operating in the area, and they could triangulate the sub's location, or used active sonar. This also works both ways; the sub probably could not tell exactly how far it was away from the destroyer, and with the array being so small, probably did not detect it as well.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Care to show us an example of a warship forcing another nation's sub to the surface? There were certainly times in the cold war when the USN or RN parked a frigate on a Soviet sub and harassed it with active sonar until the carrier passed by ( that usually makes the point ), but I'm not aware of any navy forcing someone else's sub to the surface. There was an incident a couple of years ago where two Japanese DD's harassed a submerged Chinese sub with active sonar for something like 50 hours straight, but again the sub was not "forced" to surface. The two DD's and their helicopters made their point and then left.

The publicized ones include the Kitty Hawk incident. We also heard of the PLAN forcing a sub, maybe of IN, to surface in the Indian Ocean recently.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The publicized ones include the Kitty Hawk incident. We also heard of the PLAN forcing a sub, maybe of IN, to surface in the Indian Ocean recently.

I thought that was just an urban legend?

And if the sub in question was a Song or Han, I think we can easily rule out the undetected part.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I thought that was just an urban legend?

And if the sub in question was a Song or Han, I think we can easily rule out the undetected part.

With military news, you can never be 100% sure of all the details but it was quite widely reported though, those who know is unlikely to tell.
Don't know what sub it was but it was reported to remain undetected until well within the torpedo range of the carrier.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

this is kind of interesting, discusses what the projects are that this one guy has worked on. The actual name was disguised in the original report with XX, but one of the big shrimps filled them out. Basically this guy in the report has worked on JL-1 and J-2 project. He seems to also be in charge of the main project to put VLS for 095, specially the part for launching cruise missiles.

关于09-V型号....
1982年毕业于上海交通大学,参加工作以来一直从事潜载导弹水下发射技术研究和发射装置设计工作,先后参加了我国两代潜地弹道导弹发射装置、一型潜舰导弹运载器的型号研制和一型潜地弹道导弹发射装置的改换装工作,曾任 XX-X 潜地导弹发射装置改换装技术负责人、XX-X 导弹发射装置副总设计师和多项舰艇导弹发射技术重点预研课题的技术负责人,现任 XXX 艇巡航导弹垂直发射装置技术负责人、XX 艇巡航导弹发射系统副主任设计师、七一三所副总工程师等职务。获国防科工委国防科技二等奖两项、三等奖三项。担任研究所兵器发射理论与技术专业硕士生导师、机械设计及理论专业博士生导师和北京理工大学兼职教授,指导硕士生10名,协助指导博士生1名。撰写并发表论文二十多篇,参加编著《潜地导弹发射装置讲义》和《潜地导弹发射装置设计》内部教材两部。1998入选郑州市跨世纪学术技术带头人,2001年获中国船舶重工集团公司第七研究院优秀中青年科技专家称号,2003年入选国防科技工业“511人才工程”学术技术带头人。

1982年毕业于上海交通大学,参加工作以来一直从事潜载导弹水下发射技术研究和发射装置设计工作,先后参加了我国两代潜地弹道导弹发射装置、一型潜舰导弹运载器的型号研制和一型潜地弹道导弹发射装置的改换装工作,曾任巨浪-1 潜地导弹发射装置改换装技术负责人、巨浪-2 导弹发射装置副总设计师和多项舰艇导弹发射技术重点预研课题的技术负责人,现任 095 核潜艇长剑巡航导弹垂直发射装置技术负责人、95 艇巡航导弹发射系统副主任设计师、七一三所副总工程师等职务。获国防科工委国防科技二等奖两项、三等奖三项。担任研究所兵器发射理论与技术专业硕士生导师、机械设计及理论专业博士生导师和北京理工大学兼职教授,指导硕士生10名,协助指导博士生1名。撰写并发表论文二十多篇,参加编著《潜地导弹发射装置讲义》和《潜地导弹发射装置设计》内部教材两部。1998入选郑州市跨世纪学术技术带头人,2001年获中国船舶重工集团公司第七研究院优秀中青年科技专家称号,2003年入选国防科技工业“511人才工程”学术技术带头人。
 

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines * Undetected by US Navy

PLAN submarines go undetected by US Navy, are we suppose to be getting used to it?

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:china: :china:

China-US naval incident part of a rising trend

By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN – 3 days ago

BEIJING (AP) — China has called the latest collision between Chinese and U.S. naval vessels an accident, but many of the elements echo previous altercations that have raised concerns that China's navy is growing increasingly aggressive in its patrols of the waters off its coast.

In last week's incident, as before, a Chinese submarine was found to be shadowing a U.S. Navy ship — possibly undetected by sonar equipment being towed behind the American destroyer.

The South China Sea, where the collision occurred and where the U.S. Navy operates amid a complex patchwork of competing territorial claims, is also a familiar backdrop for such incidents.

Even the damaged sonar array that was hit by the Chinese submarine has featured in past confrontations.

While not every incident gets reported, analysts say evidence suggests they're happening more frequently as Beijing flexes its improved naval capabilities and asserts its objections to U.S. Naval activity in disputed waters.

"We're seeing an upswing in incidents that reflects an increasingly aggressive Chinese capability, especially in what it considers to be its own territorial waters," said Alex Neil, head of the Asia Program at the Royal United Services Institute in London.

Chinese state-run newspapers on Monday labeled last week's collision as an accident, with the official China Daily citing Chinese military experts as saying that it probably occurred due to a misjudgment of distance.

No injuries were reported either aboard the sub or on the destroyer USS John S. McCain, and the extent of the damage to the towed radar was unknown.

Yin Zhuo, a senior researcher with the People's Liberation Army's Navy Equipment Research Center, said the American destroyer appeared to have failed to detect the submarine, while the Chinese vessel set its distance from the McCain assuming it was not towing sonar arrays, according to the paper.

The sophisticated and expensive arrays are used to remotely detect the presence of submarines, mines and other underwater objects. They are connected to ships and submarines by cables up to a few miles (kilometers) long.

Although the incident occurred in international waters reportedly northwest of Subic Bay in the Philippines, China vigorously opposes all U.S. Naval activity and intelligence gathering in the region.

Eyewitnesses to a March confrontation in the South China Sea say sailors aboard Chinese ships wielded a boat hook in an apparent attempt to snag a U.S. surveillance ship's sonar array tow line.

China regards the entire South China Sea and island groups within it as its own and interprets international law as giving it the right to police foreign naval activity there.

The U.S. doesn't take a position on sovereignty claims to the sea but insists on the Navy's right to transit the area and collect surveillance data.

Neither military would say much about last week's incident.

China's Defense Ministry did not respond to questions sent by fax Monday, while calls to its offices rang unanswered. The U.S. Pacific Fleet added nothing to its brief statement Sunday that merely confirmed that the sonar had been damaged last Wednesday.

The Chinese reports did not discuss the direct cause of the collision or the nature of the Chinese sub's mission.

Maj. Gen. Luo Yuan, a frequent commentator on military matters, appeared to blame the U.S., reiterating standard rhetoric that its actions pose a threat to Beijing.

"The best way to avoid such collisions is for the Pentagon to stop its unfriendly mores toward China in this region," Luo was quoted as saying in China Daily.

Pentagon officials have said there were four incidents earlier this year where Chinese-flagged fishing vessels maneuvered close to unarmed U.S. ships crewed by civilians and used by the Pentagon to do underwater surveillance and submarine hunting missions.

And about three years ago, a Chinese submarine surfaced just five miles (eight kilometers) away from the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk and its escorts during exercises off Okinawa. It still isn't clear whether the sub, which was within torpedo firing range of the carrier, had been detected.

Such incidents are expected to grow as the 225,000-sailor People's Liberation Army Navy boosts both the size and quality of its submarine fleet. China already operates more subs than any other Asian nation, with up to 10 nuclear-powered vessels and as many as 60 diesel-electric subs, while a major new submarine base is reportedly under construction on the island province of Hainan in the South China Sea.

China has so far largely rebuffed U.S. calls for greater transparency and operational communication to avoid such incidents. China's military has only recently begun to drop its veil of secrecy and limits most military exchanges with other nations to arms sales and ceremonial visits.

Neil, of the Royal Institute, said that without greater efforts between the navies to reach an agreement on how to avoid misunderstandings and improve communication, the sides risk the possibility of a far more serious collision or clash resulting in the loss of life or vessels.

"We're going to see more of the same and the potential for a serious incident will rise. There needs to be a discussion about standing operating procedure," he said.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
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