PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Mashan]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Or by deduction, It wasn't any of Americas allies, because they would have been told, that leaves the Russians and the Chinese. Guess who would be at the top of the list, if the Russians didn't secretly tell the Americans , that it wasn't them.

If it is a nuclear submarine then it is down to two players China and Russia, then if it is a diesel sub then most likely China, since it is kind of far for a Russia diesel sub to travel to that part of Asia I think.

 

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

If it is a nuclear submarine then it is down to two players China and Russia, then if it is a diesel sub then most likely China, since it is kind of far for a Russia diesel sub to travel to that part of Asia I think.

Certainly each class of ship and sub has a unique acoustic signature. Individual units of a class can be differentiated from each other by the quirks in their acoustic signatures. One might have a worn pump with it's own associated sound, another a nick in a prop, another some noisy piece of electronic apparatus( like a noisy refrigerator in the galley ). Each sub and surface ship has their quirks that are reflected in their acoustic signatures. These signatures would change after a major overhaul too. At least during the cold war Nato and the US was very diligent about recording these for every submarine and surface ship, regardless of whether or not it was a threat ship or friendly, amassing a huge data base of these that was stored digitally in each ship's sonar library, and referenced automatically when a contact was made. This is probably how the US can say the sub was Chinese.

 

[Mashan]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Certainly each class of ship and sub has a unique acoustic signature. Individual units of a class can be differentiated from each other by the quirks in their acoustic signatures. One might have a worn pump with it's own associated sound, another a nick in a prop, another some noisy piece of electronic apparatus( like a noisy refrigerator in the galley ). Each sub and surface ship has their quirks that are reflected in their acoustic signatures. These signatures would change after a major overhaul too. At least during the cold war Nato and the US was very diligent about recording these for every submarine and surface ship, regardless of whether or not it was a threat ship or friendly, amassing a huge data base of these that was stored digitally in each ship's sonar library, and referenced automatically when a contact was made. This is probably how the US can say the sub was Chinese.

Correct this will be the technical answer, the one I gave was only based on geo-political reasoning, must less precise.

 

[pla101prc]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Certainly each class of ship and sub has a unique acoustic signature. Individual units of a class can be differentiated from each other by the quirks in their acoustic signatures. One might have a worn pump with it's own associated sound, another a nick in a prop, another some noisy piece of electronic apparatus( like a noisy refrigerator in the galley ). Each sub and surface ship has their quirks that are reflected in their acoustic signatures. These signatures would change after a major overhaul too. At least during the cold war Nato and the US was very diligent about recording these for every submarine and surface ship, regardless of whether or not it was a threat ship or friendly, amassing a huge data base of these that was stored digitally in each ship's sonar library, and referenced automatically when a contact was made. This is probably how the US can say the sub was Chinese.

look, if the US said it was Chinese, it must have been because they CONFIRMED with the Chinese. no one is stupid enough to rely on some equipment reading thousands of miles away operated by a different department. its politically irresponsible to claim that the sub was from a certain country before confirming with that country that the sub was their's. because you never know your equipment might just happen to make a mistake.

 

[williamhou]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Or by deduction, It wasn't any of Americas allies, because they would have been told, that leaves the Russians and the Chinese. Guess who would be at the top of the list, if the Russians didn't secretly tell the Americans , that it wasn't them.

If its radar detected no submarine and no submarine surfaced, it could be a whale the USN was dealing with :roll:

 

[Schumacher]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Unless we're talking about a very very long sonar tether, the destroyer was within torpedo range of the sub & the sub was trailing the destroyer not realizing there was a sonar in its path.

They would have moved the sonar away from the sub to avoid collision had they detected it . Unless the sonar was just somehow floating on the surface, the collision happened under the surface.
Add it all up, a submerged sub within torpedo range, I'd bet the destroyer knew nothing until the collision.
How they know it's PLAN can easily be explained by maybe communications with the sub or PLAN command after the collision.
The consolation for USN could be that there was no ASW helicopters there so they could say the ASW was not at full strength at the time.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Unless we're talking about a very very long sonar tether, the destroyer was within torpedo range of the sub & the sub was trailing the destroyer not realizing there was a sonar in its path.

The towed set involved has a length of over a mile.

They would have moved the sonar away from the sub to avoid collision had they detected it . Unless the sonar was just somehow floating on the surface, the collision happened under the surface.

Can't; the AN/SQR-19 array is trailed behind with a drogue attached to the end, and it cannot be controlled. The only way it can be moved is by reeling the entire set back in, and that can take a while. Here's a basic diagram of the set:

Add it all up, a submerged sub within torpedo range, I'd bet the destroyer knew nothing until the collision.
How they know it's PLAN can easily be explained by maybe communications with the sub or PLAN command after the collision.
The consolation for USN could be that there was no ASW helicopters there so they could say the ASW was not at full strength at the time.

Oh, I bet they knew. At the possible speeds involved, any submarine would be making enough noise to be heard. And the specific set is also very good at target identification, and for hunting conventional submarines (the Canadian Navy uses the same AN/SQR-19 array, but uses a different signal processor to create their own platform called CANTASS).

 

[Schumacher]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The towed set involved has a length of over a mile.

Can't; the AN/SQR-19 array is trailed behind with a drogue attached to the end, and it cannot be controlled. The only way it can be moved is by reeling the entire set back in, and that can take a while. Here's a basic diagram of the set:

Oh, I bet they knew. At the possible speeds involved, any submarine would be making enough noise to be heard. And the specific set is also very good at target identification, and for hunting conventional submarines (the Canadian Navy uses the same AN/SQR-19 array, but uses a different signal processor to create their own platform called CANTASS).

So modern torpedo range is only about a mile ?
I'm sure the AN/SQR-19 is 'very good' ...... especially now they've found a new tactic on how to use it against a sub ... by using it to hit the sub on the head. LOL
If indeed they were tracking the sub, hard to believe they didn't reel in the sonar to avoid damage unless of course they intended to experiment on the new sonar vs sub tactic I mention above. LOL

 

[Ambivalent]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Unless we're talking about a very very long sonar tether, the destroyer was within torpedo range of the sub & the sub was trailing the destroyer not realizing there was a sonar in its path.

They would have moved the sonar away from the sub to avoid collision had they detected it . Unless the sonar was just somehow floating on the surface, the collision happened under the surface.
Add it all up, a submerged sub within torpedo range, I'd bet the destroyer knew nothing until the collision.
How they know it's PLAN can easily be explained by maybe communications with the sub or PLAN command after the collision.
The consolation for USN could be that there was no ASW helicopters there so they could say the ASW was not at full strength at the time.

Well, yes and no. Some torpedos have ranges in the tens of kilometers, but those variable dept sonars have extremely long tethers too. They have to be able to go as deep as the deepest diving subs to penetrate the thermal layers. The MH-60R has 450 meters of cable on it's sonar reel, and it's a helo. The destroyer will have more.
You have no idea what the sonar team on that destroyer heard, or rather saw on their waterfall display, or what their threat library was telling them. A passive sonar will give you direction information but not distance. That has to be judged by a skilled operator. Only an active sonar gives you range and direction. Btw, it was not unheard of for submarines to run up the rear of another sub underwater during the cold war, for the same reason. Last, it is not a war, so a Chinese sub can approach a US ship and there is nothing the US can do about it in international waters. That does not imply the sub was not detected, nor does it imply naturally that same sub would successfully approach the same ship in a wartime scenario. Put yourself on that DD. Your tail is in the water and you know a sub of a certain description is back there. You can't attack it, so you listen, and study how it operates, maybe record it's acoustic signature and add it to the threat library. You can't order it to leave or attack it, we aren't at war.

 

[bladerunner]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

If its radar detected no submarine and no submarine surfaced, it could be a whale the USN was dealing with :roll:

that is very very true :rofl: