PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

If you want my guesstimate of the 093 and 094, I would say somewhere between the late Thresher and early 688, at the most, probably with the Narwhal, which is a heavily modded Thresher class with turbine electric drive without reduction gears. Assuming the Narwhal's case if the 093 is rumored to have turboelectric drive.

The 094 is probably a little noisier than the 093.

wow, those are some pretty old subs *raise eybrows in awe*.
On Sinodefence, and Jeff Head's page on the PLAN all compare the 093 to the Los Angeles class. IMHO think it's more comparable to early LA classes. Sinodefence is very reliable in the idea that it usually dampens down speculations to the bare bones of information released.

Anyway moving on...
Do you think the speculated 095 will be similar in terms of capability and quiet-ness to the Seawolf/Virginia?

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Back in 2004, a Han went through the Ryukus and it was detected cruising at 300 meters. The sub then went south, turned around the island of Guam, then headed back. Didn't seem that the sub was quiet but the cruising depth is impressive at 300 m (the LA class is said to have an operational depth of 290m, though this is not crush depth).

This does not seem to be the improved Hans though, the first one appearing at least in 2006.

I should correct the mention of the turbo electric drive not to the Narwhal but to the Tulibee and the Glenn Lipscomb, which are both one ship class.

I am trying to equate the 093 to the first US SSNs that feature skewed propellers, which should be around the Thresher or Sturgeon class. The Thresher was also the first US SSN that had all its mechanicals, "rafted", meaning, they're all put into resilient mountings.

The 093 does have an important advantage over the Thresher and Sturgeon classes is that its much bigger, and size does absorb sound more than a smaller sub, or allows more places to put insulation.

The Narwhal, maybe, if the 093 has a natural circulation reactor. This is something that needs to be confirmed.

To get closer to the Seawolf/Virginia class level, a number of features may need to happen.

1. Less sink holes to make less flow noise.

2; Return to retractable bow diving planes. Diving planes make their own flow noise.

3. Natural circulation reactors that eliminate pumps or reduce the usage of pumps.

4. A hefty size to absorb sound and more space to put insulation.

5. Pump jet propulsor, or wrap a duct around the propeller. This will lower the propeller noise.

6. Carefully streamlining of the sail, again to reduce flow noise.

7, Elimination of reduction gears.

Although not featured with the Seawolf and Virginia classes, a turbo electric drive without reduction gears (transmission) are generally quieter than conventional drive systems with reduction gears. It is said that the Narwhal used slow turning turbines that connect directly to the propeller shaft without reduction gears.

Features alone does not complete the noise equation but signs are like these are indication of the attention to detail needed for noise reduction.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

As I said before it wasn't my view, just sources that I read, I'd be more than pleased if you can logically refute it.
One never has enough info as it continually needs updating, but until recently Chinese subs spent more time in port or home waters, rather than blue water patrols.As Crobatos post 2/5 points out, their ballistic missile boats have never ventured out on patrol.

And many continue to deny the fact that the Kitty Hawk nor any of her escorts ever detected a Song which according to many would've been detected because all Chinese subs' signatures have been recorded and Chinese subs are noisy as hell and not mention all that superior technology. So all those sources I bet also deny, ignore, and don't put into account these fundamental facts that the Song(s) should have been detected. It happened. There's your logic.

 

[bladerunner]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Just been reviewing on what had been said on the state of Chinese subs, over the last couple of years. The general view posted by seasoned members is that, although Chinese subs are about a generation behind their Western counterparts, the gap is closing, but surely the premise of that logic is relying on the fact that Western subs aren't advancing as well, a proposition that I have trouble reconciling with.
However be that as it may,and its close to 18months now , does the idea that China is closing the technology ring true?

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Just been reviewing on what had been said on the state of Chinese subs, over the last couple of years. The general view posted by seasoned members is that, although Chinese subs are about a generation behind their Western counterparts, the gap is closing, but surely the premise of that logic is relying on the fact that Western subs aren't advancing as well, a proposition that I have trouble reconciling with.
However be that as it may,and its close to 18months now , does the idea that China is closing the technology ring true?

Closure will depend on how fast the next generation of Chinese subs are released, or how fast is their generation cycle. What works to the Chinese advantage is that Western generational cycles appear to take a long long while.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I will be interested to see if the 095 and 096 are actually real projects. All I've heard so far is just speculation.

Hopefully they will look ok. Like having obvious tech on par with Seawolf/Virginia. Like the duct over the propeller.
Hopefully 096 won't have a hump over it either.... Looks ugly =P.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Hmm.... maybe the next-gen PLAN boat can hope to approach the capabilities of the early Virginias, but to reach the Seawolf's level of capability in one generation seems kind of overly ambitious.

On Sinodefence, and Jeff Head's page on the PLAN all compare the 093 to the Los Angeles class.

It is funny you say that, because Crobato clearly wrote:

I would say somewhere between the late Thresher and early 688

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

we don't know exactly how good 093 really is. An educated guess would be that it is a couple of generations behind seawolf. And we will see where 095 at. They really do have to design it to be at least better than LA class.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Hmm.... maybe the next-gen PLAN boat can hope to approach the capabilities of the early Virginias, but to reach the Seawolf's level of capability in one generation seems kind of overly ambitious.



It is funny you say that, because Crobato clearly wrote:

Yeah I put "Seawolf/Virginia" cause one's a cheaper alternative to the other. Though obviously the Seawolf is superior.

And I had a blank moment when I put in that phrase about being comparable to the LA class. For some reason I thought 688 didn't register with me as being the same thing as LA.. =P

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

688 should really be divided into two classes. The "early" kind has planes in the sail, and somewhat shorter. The "improved" kind has planes on the hull, is longer, and has VLS tubes for cruise missiles.

I prefer to compare the 093 with the "early" kind these being the last SSNs the US has with planes on the sail, and 093 having visible lack of a VLS.

On the other hand, the early 688 didn't have flank sonars, only starting around the improved 688 class did this manifest, which were later added on the early class. The 093 has large flank sonars. The 093 also packs more torpedo tubes than the Thresher and Sturgeon classes, and has more tonnage indicating greater potential levels of endurance. The 093 also has a tail TAS, which is thin on top of the vertical tail fin.

My comparison with the Thresher to early 688 is based on what my guesstimate to be the acoustic level of the 093. Speed, endurance, sensors and weapons capability should be ahead of the Thresher to Sturgeon classes due to the size and displacement of the 093. On the sensors department, might be right to the improved LA class. Speed is a question mark. It would be impressive if it can match the last Victor III class submarines underwater.

These are just my own personal estimates and approximations. My feeling is that PLAN can do better, there are many clues to make a better sub floating around.

I feel it would be lucky---and troublesome to an opponent---if the 093 can match the acoustic level of the Ohio class. Even though the Ohio still has sail planes, a natural circulation reactor claims to make the sub quieter than the LA class. It would be crucial if it can be proven that the PLAN subs have natural circulation reactors.

On the 094 hump, yeah, making it more flushed would help.