PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

jobjed

Captain
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

High noise level information of 092 and 094 SSBNs are from US intelligence community, what creditable data do you have to suggest they're wrong?

Why would the US intelligence community intentionally let the world know that they have gathered acoustic signatures of one of the most secretive pieces of hardware possessed by a major power? If you know a piece of vital information, it's wise to keep it to yourself.
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Why would the US intelligence community intentionally let the world know that they have gathered acoustic signatures of one of the most secretive pieces of hardware possessed by a major power? If you know a piece of vital information, it's wise to keep it to yourself.
Well they don't do that. Japanese do that openly reporting such events from time to time. There's also Taiwan which shares informations with US on that matter (I assume that we can count South Korea on the group as well).

At the same time Chinese submarines go to Pacific unnoticed sometimes as well.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Why would the US intelligence community intentionally let the world know that they have gathered acoustic signatures of one of the most secretive pieces of hardware possessed by a major power? If you know a piece of vital information, it's wise to keep it to yourself.

It's an old report from 2009. Also, US intelligence communities doled out snippets of similar information in the Cold War too. Call it domestic politics and international relations if you like, but the ONI data are most likely spot on.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Well, Schumacher, with the logic you are using here, that's all you are likely going to see.

It would be like me saying that all the talk the great capabilities of the Type 052Ds, the coming Type 095s, the advances in PLAN naval aviation, etc., etc. is all cheap talk because the US has clearly invested a lot more money (a LOT more) in their existing systems.
The Chinese are investing so much money in their succeeding generations of nuclear submarines so quickly precisely because they are playing catch up...and there is nothing wrong with that.
But it is clear that we simply are not going to agree on this. Schade, so ist das eben.

Your example of 095 052D is not quite right. Again it's PLA who put their big money where their mouth is with these new investments. US like you said has their existing systems which are sunk costs. It's only smart for them to talk the other side down if they don't have the means to meet the challenges.
It may indeed be true 095 052D don't close the gap with USN at all but since we have little real data & one side have put up the money while the other is mostly talk, I'll go with the money side for now.

As to somehow "proving," this to you on a public forum...LOL! Schumacher, the only way to give you absolute proof, is for the US to video them sinking or finding a Type 094 in the open sea, and then publishing it. They are simply not going to do that for your or my or anyone else's public benefit. To ask for, or expect such a revelation is ludicrous itself.

So, you go ahead and believe what you want....that's your choice.

...............

Well, what did you expect when you entered this debate ? You're not debating with me, it's with PLAN who just put down billions on the other side of the debate. You really thought you can win with just a few paragraphs of not very relevant stuffs & heavy dose of beliefs that USN just has to be so much more advanced than PLAN ?
It may work with some fanboys who already decided what they want to believe. I'll stick with real world & real money for now.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

High noise level information of 092 and 094 SSBNs are from US intelligence community, what creditable data do you have to suggest they're wrong?

High ? How high ? Enough to prevent 094 from doing its job ?
I highly doubt you get much useful sub noise level in the public domain.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I said standard not war load. The days of the Typhoon class are over war loads have moved back to 16 shot capacity for SSBNs. The quietness, technology and safety are my meaning.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I said standard not war load. The days of the Typhoon class are over war loads have moved back to 16 shot capacity for SSBNs. The quietness, technology and safety are my meaning.

As kinetic and directed energy missile defense systems improve, the offensive side might resort to the fuzzy principle by carrying larger loads of missiles with MIRV warheads. Days of the Typhoon might not be over, especially if nations could cruise their SSBNs near their own shores, protected by marine and land-based naval and air assets.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I would like to point out there is no direct evidence that the Chinese really ever intended to serial build any boomer design in the sense "serial" is normally understood where a sizeable number of nearly identical boats is built in a short span of time. They may have always intended to create a fleet of several small classes of just around 2 boats each, separated by 7-10 years, evertually reaching a steady state of around 7-8 operational boats in 4-5 classes. (assuming operational life for each class of 30 years) This is not most cost efficient, but it does avoid block absolescence. Once the steady state is reached, in 20 years and at least 2 more new classes of SSBNs or so from now, they would be in a state where they will usually have a few boats bordering on obsolescence by international standards. But most of the time, on average, they would also have a few boats that's newer, and presumably more advanced, than boats in other navies that relies on serial building a single class of SSBN, like all the western navies now.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I would like to point out there is no direct evidence that the Chinese really ever intended to serial build any boomer design in the sense "serial" is normally understood where a sizeable number of nearly identical boats is built in a short span of time.
Actually, IMHO, what they have done with the Type 054A frigates and are in the process of doing with the Type 052D DDGs indicates that this is there intent.

They may have always intended to create a fleet of several small classes of just around 2 boats each, separated by 7-10 years, evertually reaching a steady state of around 7-8 operational boats in 4-5 classes. (assuming operational life for each class of 30 years). This is not most cost efficient, but it does avoid block absolescence.
You also can avoid block obsolescence by having a mature enough base to produce cutting edge technology with the desing built to reach forecasted technological advances over its life.

The Chinese have not acheived cutting edge trechnological status in their current nuclear submarine designs, so they are using a small build batch, multiple new class method to get there.

In this way they move their technology base and manufacturing forward so ultimately they can build a class vessel that could be serially constructed (albeit for the PLAN, right now a serially produced SSBN would probably max out at probably six to eight vessels) which had the capability to come out of the chute at the edge of the current technological curve, and be able to be updated over its service life to remain there.

This is the ideal, and it is one that China, along with every other large maritime power, seeks to achieve for its major combatants for the obvous cost benefit reasons, both during the construction period and over the life of the vessels during maintenance.

I expect that the Chinese will get there. Clearly, when they do, they will build that new class over many years and during that build cycle (as the US does) continue to add upgrades to the basic design as they replace the older design boats.

Then, when the actual hull has reached its capacity to be improved and the technologies forecasted for the future require it, they will come out with a new class and start that process over again.

There is no reason why, once they reach that level of maturity, they cannot fold in the serially produced, mature vessel into the end of life of the existing, older, less mature class vessels that were built getting them there. Once they have, they are then on a newer, much more efficient, and cutting edge plane.
 
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