PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The train of thought is going to lead to one thing after another. The next thing would be, why not design an SSK with many VLS on the back to hold longer ranged or regular SAMs.

First of all, SSKs don't have the room to hold the radar necessary to do the long range search, tracking and guidance to support a SAM battery.

Second, using such equipment, radar and all, will only draw attention to the sub and get attacked by a posse of ships, planes and helos.

Third, such an equipment uses too much electrical power, and battery power is life or death for a sub.

Fourth, assuming you get around these problems using datalinking and networking, this is never a good idea to begin with, because for the cost of such a sub, you can get an AD destroyer or large frigate with VLS and phase array.

Finally, it all takes up too much space. I'm sure some people are inspired by the art work of the Amur 950 with the VLS on the back for AshMs. This may raise some idea that having a VLS variation and shoot SAMs instead. I'm sure some of you have seen that "PLAN New Generation Submarine" artwork that has been going around in some forums and websites, which I won't bother to post here. Essentially the artwork is ripped off from Rubin's Amur 950 cutaway artwork on their website.

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Survival of any conventional submarine relies on its batteries. The more batteries it has, the longer it can stay deep underwater. Battery power is the lifeblood for anything an SSK does, from sensors to speed. So why waste it on VLS tubes and other space consuming things, when you can use every spare square foot of space along the hull buttom for batteries and more batteries. You can never have enough batteries. To be honest I wasn't really impressed in seeing that cutaway even from Rubin.
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

A missile launch like that will attract almost every single ASW platform in the area to come in and respond. So instead of 1 P-3 above you or 1 helicopter, you suddenly may have 10 P-3's or helicopters buzzing above you.


Only attack those plane patrolling alone.
 

Autumn Child

Junior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

what about nuclear subs? are they able to equip SAMs since they are larger and no issues with batteries.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Only attack those plane patrolling alone.

How can you tell? That's the issue.

If I was a ASW commander, I would gladly trade a P-3 or a ASW helicopter for a excellent chance to sink a hostile submarine. All you have done is to say "Here I am", "I'm hostile", "And come sink me". A submarine's best attribute is stealth. If I was a sub captain, I would prefer to sneak away and dive deep from a ASW helicopter or aircraft, not seek to shoot it down.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The bigger sub have detachable remote control unmanned mini-sub semi-surfaced to find out what's going on.

You then have invited other ASW assets into the area. I would circle around, drop a couple sonobuoys from medium altitude to track you, and call in reinforcements. The only time I would need to dip down to low altitude is when I want to launch a torpedo, and in the future, I won't even have to do that.

All you are doing is to invite an attack. As a submarine captain, I would do anything possible to avoid having to fight a enemy airplane because in a battle between an airplane and a submarine, the airplanes will win 9 times out of 10. We saw this in World War II; the Germans tried to arm their U-boats to the teeth with AA guns, but the Allies responded with group tactics and swarming a U-boat with aircraft. The Germans then switched tactics and decided to submerge and hide from enemy airplanes instead, and that was more successful.
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

You then have invited other ASW assets into the area. I would circle around, drop a couple sonobuoys from medium altitude to track you, and call in reinforcements. The only time I would need to dip down to low altitude is when I want to launch a torpedo, and in the future, I won't even have to do that.
.

Once it detects you are alone, SAM will be fired and the main sub would run away, your lone plane would be dead, no time for you to drop stuffs and wait for backup. By the time backup arrived, the sub is long gone and only the wreakage of the P-3 body floating on the ocean. classic case of hit-n-run
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Once it detects you are alone, SAM will be fired and the main sub would run away, your lone plane would be dead, no time for you to drop stuffs and wait for backup. By the time backup arrived, the sub is long gone and only the wreakage of the P-3 body floating on the ocean. classic case of hit-n-run

You are forgetting that the P-3 does not need to go to low altitude to drop sonobuoys. Furthermore, MANPAD's are ineffective against aircraft operating at medium altitude. Also, a P-3 is equipped with radar and IR countermeasures.

The only time I would want to drop to low altitude in a P-3 is to either launch a torpedo, or get visual confirmation as to the target.

All you are doing if I am flying at medium altitude in a ASW patrol aircraft is to confirm that there is a hostile submarine in the area. Even if I am hit, I still have enough time to broadcast my location, and then almost every single ASW platform in the area will be converging on your spot. In short, you may have killed 1, but you are now a dead man very shortly.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

what about nuclear subs? are they able to equip SAMs since they are larger and no issues with batteries.

No not at all. If ever SAMs are used it will be last ditch defensive measures.

One also has to realize that there is a minimum depth you need to launch a SAM underwater. Nuclear subs don't like patrolling near the surface. Being much larger, they also dive or sink slower to boot, which makes them particularly vulnerable more so to an aerial attack. So a nuclear sub has to be deep and stay deep. Very deep. The conventional submarine has to come to the surface to snorkel and recharge its batteries. This is where the SAM is going to be used as an insurance policy.

Nuclear subs also travel fast underwater, and vertical launch of missiles cannot be done at high speed. There is a maximum low speed required for you to launch a vertical missile. So its not wise to slow down and make yourself tactically vulnerable just to launch a SAM.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

according to the poster, these two pictures are 091 under modification/upgrade again.
091modifymar16as4.jpg

091modifymar162he8.jpg
 
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