PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

Brumby

Major
This is exactly the type of behavior that only validates the actions taken by China in this dispute even though it's not the most ideal actions.
In my view it is not a validation but rather symptomatic of an outcome and effect from a regime that is used to getting its way by fiat and damn any opposition because they are either suppressed, censored, sent to education camps or imprisoned. China simply extends the way it behaves domestically to the international environment and finds itself misplaced in articulating defences since its actions are not founded on logic, reason or international norms but rather shaped in its outlook through the lenses of uncontested domestic audience. As such in international interactions rather than articulating its policies, China finds itself at a loss in explaining its actions and customary have to resort to statements of anger at others. This state of affairs just cascade down to its surrogates i.e. the fanbois.
 

joshuatree

Captain
In my view it is not a validation but rather symptomatic of an outcome and effect from a regime that is used to getting its way by fiat and damn any opposition because they are either suppressed, censored, sent to education camps or imprisoned. China simply extends the way it behaves domestically to the international environment and finds itself misplaced in articulating defences since its actions are not founded on logic, reason or international norms but rather shaped in its outlook through the lenses of uncontested domestic audience. As such in international interactions rather than articulating its policies, China finds itself at a loss in explaining its actions and customary have to resort to statements of anger at others. This state of affairs just cascade down to its surrogates i.e. the fanbois.

Oh quite a few other govts and states have their share of hypocrisies, finding itself at a loss in explaining its actions, resorting to statements of anger at others, having their own surrogate fanbois, etc.

However, nfgc's self contradictions are evident even at the scale of govts and states so I stand by my statement that China's actions in the dispute are not merely an outcome and effect of its own regime but having to deal with other claimants that are self contradicting. I'm sure you have your viewpoint, I'll have mine.

What is remaining is whether nfgc will address the questions about Vietnam's actions in the SCS and I consider this remaining only because nfgc went off on rhetoric to anyone and how it was easy money on his challenge.
 
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Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
Oh quite a few other govts and states have their share of hypocrisies, finding itself at a loss in explaining its actions, resorting to statements of anger at others, having their own surrogate fanbois, etc.

However, nfgc's self contradictions are evident even at the scale of govts and states so I stand by my statement that China's actions in the dispute are not merely an outcome and effect of its own regime but having to deal with other claimants that are self contradicting. I'm sure you have your viewpoint, I'll have mine.

What is remaining is whether nfgc will address the questions about Vietnam's actions in the SCS and I consider this remaining only because nfgc went off on rhetoric to anyone and how it was easy money on his challenge.

Good points JT.

We need to take note of the difference between the letter and spirit of augment and purpose and intention behind it. We can dissect apart all sorts of argument as a means to an end, ie to weaken China's position, to make China to falter and fail in her comeback.

When they say rights, they mean a movement. Democracy implies a regime change. NGO's mean color revolutions. International customary laws mean the same Weak Man of Asia.

Qing dynasty's moral protests didn't stop the dope nor the Republic's blood and tears the pillage and murder.

Rights and democracy will come at the time and in the manner of China's own choosing based on her own needs and prevailing context and when she is ready. There are still hundreds of millions of Chinese whose lives would turn south really quick when the bottom falls out if the timing and sequence is off leading to instability and violence.

Transplanting a culture and the forced social engineering work wonders in Arab worlds, anyone? How is democracy and rights working for India's billions in their nation building?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In my view it is not a validation but rather symptomatic of an outcome and effect from a regime that is used to getting its way by fiat and damn any opposition because they are either suppressed, censored, sent to education camps or imprisoned. China simply extends the way it behaves domestically to the international environment and finds itself misplaced in articulating defences since its actions are not founded on logic, reason or international norms but rather shaped in its outlook through the lenses of uncontested domestic audience. As such in international interactions rather than articulating its policies, China finds itself at a loss in explaining its actions and customary have to resort to statements of anger at others. This state of affairs just cascade down to its surrogates i.e. the fanbois.

I think he's saying it's "validated" in the sense that just as nfgc accuses others in the discussion of "simply close[ing] their mouth, or turn and walk away, or declare by fiat that the discussion was over," when he is presented with a series of counter arguments he also chooses to ignore the ones he wants to. I personally think there's nothing wrong with avoiding an argument if one wants, but if you're going to criticize someone else for doing so then you'd look a bit like a hypocrite

In the same way, the analogy which I think Joshuatree is referring to, is that other claimants in the SCS such as Vietnam had conducted construction and reclamation of their occupied islands and outlets initially during the late 2000s before China did, and then when China decided enough was enough and began its own larger scale reclamation and construction in the early 2013, the nation which threw the first punch and other nations who did not criticize the nation for throwing the first punch are now directing all of their attention almost exclusively to only China's construction activities.

At least, I imagine that's the kind of analogy Joshuatree is referring to. The exact accuracy of it is another matter.


I actually think this entire vein of discussion is regrettably juvenile.
The way in which these SCS threads with nfgc go usually is that he presents an exaggerated, stereotyped (and sometimes with tinged with hint of racism) remark about China's actions on the geopolitical stage with the often unspoken conclusion that China is therefore Asia's or even the world's biggest a-hole. Or that at least, China is the biggest a-hole in the SCS dispute.
This naturally ruffles the jimmies of a whole heap of people on the other side, who would bring out what they see as counter examples, including context, the activities of other claimants, and the activities of other nations in history to demonstrate that in their view, China's actions are hardly unique and are in response to the actions of others and that other nations in the geopolitical domain have acted in greater a-hole manners than China.
But nfgc will then insist that those are just excuses, and that China is the single biggest a-hole. The other side naturally argues for the opposite.

Rinse and repeat.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Well, some can admit wrongs.

Solarz:
The difference is in scale. China has paved over entire reefs, not cut down a few trees or reclaimed a small area. The area destroyed is 100x that of Vietnam or Johnston Reef. 3500 acres vs a few dozen.

But, and I know you cannot comprehend this, you will excuse this as everyone here does with all things China.

Oh wait, JoshuaTree did:
The reclamation done by China in the SCS features *would* be environmentally wrong but given the political climate and the attempts by rival claimants to play the victim card, became a necessity if China did not want to be caught flat-footed.

You could not state that is IS wrong. Ah well. Then you excuse it.

The age old theme. China, never wrong, never apologises always with the excuses.

As far as where my first passport is from that is the USA.
I live in Asia, after living in China many years.
I also had (they went to tea with the GJAQB) several friends in the CCP.

So when you criticise me for not knowing what I am talking about, best rethink.

In any event this is not a strategy page.

Let us return to the high resolution photos of China destroying formerly pristine coral ecosystems.

The destruction of good will by other claimants of the SCS just so some ASEAN elite can get their hands on land that don't belong to them in the first place.

It's the age old theme: China will conquered us or we will be a part of China one day if we don't keep them weak because of their huge population can engulf us!

Rinse and repeat.

You may lived in China for whatever many years you've claim but your heart and soul is against anything the CPC does. Just because many of us doesn't adopt or stoop to your values doesn't mean you have to be so nasty and negative about it.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
You may lived in China for whatever many years you've claim but your heart and soul is against anything the CPC does.
There are many people in China who don't like what CPC does but love China. So what? Any open discussion is impossible there so what's wrong with that?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
There are many people in China who don't like what CPC does but love China. So what? Any open discussion is impossible there so what's wrong with that?

Do they hate the CPC enough for a regime change? No, but the Western media likes to hype and hope that it would.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Well, you can't send them all to jail but CPC is doing damn good job in that aspect.

Does it compare to Guantanamo Bay? No your view point is stuck into believing that China is about to have a regime change any time soon, so therefore without all of those "censoring" the people would naturally rise up and demand corrupted western style type of government? Who would want a Trump or Hillary as President? Good luck with that "hope and change".
 
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