joshuatree
Captain
I get that part, I'm wondering if your comment means you are in agreement or not?
PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)
- Thread starter lilzz
- Start date
I get that part, I'm wondering if your comment means you are in agreement or not?
antiterror13
Brigadier
Wondering whether the Chinese working 24x7 non stop (shift rotations), I tend to believe it is the case .... truly amazing achievement if you think how big the "island" is.
If you look at the first photo of original structure where a lot of soldiers standing there, actually original structure (2nd stage actually) is quite big ...... and then compare to the last photo (Sep 15), the original structure (2nd stage) looks very very tiny ... just showing how big the "island" is
The soldiers at fiery cross will now get enough exercises. Just run up and back down the island and that's your daily half-hour 6km jog done.
I believe with an island this size they'll need motor vehicles to respond to incidents from one part of the island to another. They'll probably patrol using vehicles.
I believe with an island this size they'll need motor vehicles to respond to incidents from one part of the island to another. They'll probably patrol using vehicles.
GreenestGDP
Junior Member
schlieffen
New Member
As solarz has pointed out this map was titled ‘map of national shame’. The bold line was not explained in the legend so it can mean anything from the loss of sphere of influence or tributaries under the Imperial Chinese tributary system, or it can also mean territorial claims. We just don’t know.
However, if one is familiar with the history of the Qing Dynasty, all countries in the bold line were indeed once tributaries (or vassal states) of the Manchu Empire at one point or another, so sphere of influence seems a lot more convincible hypothesis. As the map was included in an elementary school textbook, probably the author deliberately left this part ambiguous to help indoctrinate nationalism, which is understandable given it was 1938, the darkest year of the second Sino-Japanese war when the Chinese nation-state seems to be on the brink of collapse.
Furthermore, if you look closely the thin dashed line (which was legend as contemporary national border) are actually fairly accurate and surprising honest. For example, outer Mongolia was left out despite it was in 1938 still technically part of China from the Chinese perspective (as none of the Chinese regimes until 1946 was to recognized Mongolian independence). That being said, the nine/eleven dashed line in the SCS was there just as it would be in all subsequent Chinese maps.
All in all, the map is neither ridicules nor dishonest as you seems trying to imply. I won't blame you if you don't read traditional Chinese or overlooked the tiny legends. but if you do, as much as I hate name calling this borders an act of dishonest. If anything, the map confirms the consistency of Chinese claims. The author might be a bit too smart to blur the exact meaning of the bold lines, but as I said it was understandable given the circumstance.
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vesicles
Colonel
I tend to agree with you in most of your points. However, your comments on the Outer Mongolia might not be accurate. As you know, the Outer Mongolia only split from China in the 1960's. The current Chinese map used by the Taiwan govnt now still include the entire Mongolia (both inner and Outer Mongolia) as part of China. So it's highly unlikely that the school textbook used in 1938 (still under control of the Nationalists) would separate the outer from the Inner Mongolia.
lcloo
Captain
In a short summary, the map highlighted China's past territories, influences and tributaries since the Han Dynasty. Example the Northern part of Afghanistan was at one time under Tang Dynasty rule.
It is called the map of shame to remind the students of that era, of China's past territories, influences and tributaries, and the losses since then.
Another purpose of the map was IMO, to instil shames on the students with regard to China's state of affair in 1938, and to turn the shame into national patriotism against the invasion of Imperial Japan a year before (1937).
It is called the map of shame to remind the students of that era, of China's past territories, influences and tributaries, and the losses since then.
Another purpose of the map was IMO, to instil shames on the students with regard to China's state of affair in 1938, and to turn the shame into national patriotism against the invasion of Imperial Japan a year before (1937).
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Riding muscles powered mountain bike is greener.
They could always drive electric.
Have a golf course. Around the perimeter. And if you hit the ball into the sea then it's time for swimming lessons.
schlieffen
New Member
The first Chinese regime to recognize Mongolian independence was the KMT government, who in the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Alliance (中蘇友好同盟條約) signed on 14th Aug 1945 agreed to acknowledge the result of Mongolian referendum, which was duty held two month later and overwhelmingly supported independence. The ROC recognized the Outer Mongolia state the following year.
Admittedly, later in 1953 the ROC revoked its commitment to the treaty by accusing Soviet government for violating its treaty obligation by assisting CCP in the civil war. Whether this accusation is true can be open for debate, but it is worth noting that the KMT authority did not act until it was driven out of Chinese mainland and fled to Taiwan. As people used to say, in order to give one would first of all have to be in possession of something that can be given. By early 50s, KMT has lost the mainland including both inner and Outer Mongolia for good, and its position on the later was both irrelevant and worthless. Obviously the KMT dared not to confront the Soviet superpower over Mongolia when it still controlled the mainland, and only chose to do cheap lip service when it was separated from Soviet Union by the communist china, the Taiwan strait and most important of all the US seventh fleet. Its rescinding of recognizing Mongolia was both risk-free and substance-free.
In addition, I’m no expert of international law but I’m not sure if nations can actually retrieve their recognition of another nation’s sovereign. Is it even possible to undo these sorts of things? They can of course act unilaterally but their stand in the international community would be problematic. Admittedly, the UN would pass resolution 505 to support the ROC accusation, but that was a difficult time in the history of United Nations (between 1950-54) when it was almost completely dominated by the US and its puppets states due to Soviet boycotting UN in protest of its refusal to let PRC to replace ROC as the sole representative of China. With the Soviet absent, UN would pass a great many resolutions to smear and condemn the Soviets, communist China and the entire East bloc in general. Most notably it would support the US-led intervention in Korea. In great embarrassment, later from 60s onwards the UN would revoked most of the biased resolution it passed in this era. As a matter of fact, at one time (between 1961 and 1971) Mongolia and ROC would simultaneously sit in the UN as member states, so the Taiwan regime’s ‘reclaim’ of out Mongolia was wishful thinking at best.
Finally, the KMT government’s 1945 concession to the Soviets set a bad precedent for it successor, the PRC government. It undermined whatever leverage (which was very limited) that PRC might hope to barter with the Soviets over Mongolia, by present the independent Mongolian state as fait accompli. The PRC government has no choice but to accept it, if with some reluctance. This is why I always insist that of all people, the ROC authority has absolutely no right to accuse the PRC for ‘ceding’ Outer Mongolia because it was they themself who did it.