PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

Considering the amount of rumors and misinformation that gets tossed around on new weapon acquisitions, I'd probably treat the news as "iffy" until more info is avail.

Some examples of past "iffy" news include, PLAAF's purchase of MiG-31, and Nigeria's J-8-II purchase. Both are now proven false as the PLAAF bought the Su-27 and Nigeria bought J-7.

Personally I've found Defense industry daily to be far more reliable than, say, Janes or Mosnews. -_-;;

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

This was posted by tphuang from an article he found. This his his partial translation;

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=920&page=5

Then it talks about carrier development. Supposedly the problems are all solved except aircraft, and the Navy is really wanting to acquire SU-32FN, not just a rumor. Supposedly the problems of catapult and deck material have been solved. A land-based testing site was built, with separate landing strip and catapult. The catapult is steam (PLAN insisted) and is inside a cave (I suppose the aircraft flies out the mouth on takeoff). Tested with J-7II. Testing is already complete and caves probably sealed-off. It wasn't detected by foreign intel, even with satelite, because it looked the same as other cave-based airstrips. Steam catapult development was based on carrier bought from Aussies as scrap metal. Plans for carrier is in the 60,000 ton displacement class, 24 fighters, 24 strike ac. Models have fighters that look like small F-22s.

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Hello!! If this is 50% true this is big news for the PLAN CV plans. Now what we need is more recent pics of the Varyag so we can determine if a catapult is going to be installed on the Varyag. If not and a catapult has been developed it could be installed on some future PLAN CV.

What do you fellows think??

Personally looking at the present pics of the ship I see no indication a catapult will be installed. Of course I do not know how old those pics we have are. Interesting topic!

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

If PLAN is going for a catapult, it would be a great boost to chinese carrier aviation plans. I've stated several times about my views on soviet carrier doctrines and philosofies but now i must confess i've been bit on the wrong tracks, excpecially when it comes to the Ski-jump issue. I will explain more of this in the upcoming part III of my soviet carrier thread, but here's a little foreplay...(foreplay..hhmm..may sound bit wrong in this case but at this time of evening my english isen't in it's best shape...)

I've been stating that soviets were never aple to produce a working steam catapult and therefore they chosed the ski-jump conficuration. New information has come to the light and it now appears that the ski-jump selection was more of a political decision, nothing to do whit actual the catapult development than ofcourse that it meant it's cancellation. This was due the missbelieve and overestimations of the new Yak-41 V/STOL planes performance in some circles of soviet leadership. The fact that conventional jets onboard Kuznetsov was only due the exelent performance of these aircrafts which allowed them to take of without the catapult. So what this means is that i've turned 180 degree in my views of carrier aviation and it gives new light to the chinese carrier choises and plans.
The fact (tough not yeat solid) that chinese succeeded making working steam catabult supports more of those new info on soviet carrier development as well. If china can do it, then soviet union certainly could have been able to do it (don't take that one offencive in any ways)

If there were a catabult fitted in Varyag it will dramatically change the aircraft speculations. Someone mentioned Su-32FN a.k.a Su-33KUB...but i think thats over estimation. I doupt that chinese would have been able to produce catapult powerfull enough that it could lauch as heavy aircraft as the "strike flanker" in full load. I would more concerate on the possipilityes what this may give to the ASW and AEW planes...could those mock-up Y-7 with rotodome be more than just a export concepts???

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

a catapult...ON A SKI JUMP? or are u saying the plans should redesign the frontal section to be able to accomadate a ski jump? a redesign would take a year at least, and would produce many technical difficulties. is it worth it?
maybe. the russians simply took the cheap way and used a ski jump. the chinese...who knows.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

MIGleader said:

a catapult...ON A SKI JUMP? or are u saying the plans should redesign the frontal section to be able to accomadate a ski jump? a redesign would take a year at least, and would produce many technical difficulties. is it worth it?
maybe. the russians simply took the cheap way and used a ski jump. the chinese...who knows.

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MIGleader a catapult would be installed on the angle deck. Like USN & FN(French Navy) Cv's. Personally to install a steam catapult on this ship would be quite a task. Steam lines would have to be routed from the bowels of the propulsion plant to just under the flight deck. And for a ship not engineered this way it would be quite an undertaking. First off it would have to be determined if the propulsion plant could produce enough steam to fire an aircraft launching catapult. Then some major retro fitting would be done. This alone would take several years to design and retro fit. I think the mystical catapult if it does indeed exist is probaly for the future mystical PLAN indeginous CV.

Check out the FN Charles De Gaulle. Note the catapult on the angle deck.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

If I have to install a catapult, I would install a waist catapult. So the ski jump can remain unchanged and I have the opportunity to test catapulted take offs from the angled deck as well as unassisted take offs over the ski jump ramp.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

a couple of more thoughts on this, it's kind of interesting that PLAN went to ask Brazil (one of the 3 countries with CTOL carrier) about carrier questions.

Anyhow, I'm starting to grow serious doubts about this, it seems like this was posted on someone's blog.


Hopefully, I will get more insights on this later tonight.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

tphuang said:

a couple of more thoughts on this, it's kind of interesting that PLAN went to ask Brazil (one of the 3 countries with CTOL carrier) about carrier questions.

Anyhow, I'm starting to grow serious doubts about this, it seems like this was posted on someone's blog.

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Hopefully, I will get more insights on this later tonight.

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Tphuang I'm not sure what is your doubt about. Are you saying that it is not possible that PLAN officers asked Brazil how to operate a CV or do u mean something else?

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

so perhaps the plan can use vayag's side lauch deck to lauch planes with a catapult, and use the main ski jump to launch planes conventionaly. if either is damaged, the other can be used. but plan pilots would need alot of training to handle the ski jump, and even more to handle a catapult. perhaps the plan should built a gian flight deck in a large pool of water. it can be fitted with a melbourne style catacpult to lauch l-15s, and it can also have a ski jump. the pool can be used to generate toss and turn on the high seas.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

PLABUDDY said:

Tphuang I'm not sure what is your doubt about. Are you saying that it is not possible that PLAN officers asked Brazil how to operate a CV or do u mean something else?

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I'm talking about the authenticity of the article. When something is from another person's blog, even I get suspicious.

As for L-15, it won't need a catapult, it's normal liftoff distance is 200 m.