PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Jeff Head said:

Yes, the bricks were defective and she could not maintain her top speed during her acceptance trials over a year ago.

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Actually I think that a few of my bricks are out of place and cannot maintain my top speed either, although I did drop the Honey Badger on a small hill last night after a ten mile ride, I could see her kind of hunker down over her handlebars, and start to spin up the hill, about half way up, she decided she had me and relaxed, as I have told her many times in road biking at my age, one must CHEAT every chance you get. So I Did, I completely caught her with her ahem,, "guard" down, and she was so disgusted, she was almost angry, especially when she saw me smirking, she is in much better shape than I, runs 1/2 marathons, etc, etc,, and can in general take me on the flats, and is far to honest.....brat
actually since I have already announced my intention to win at any cost, maybe the Russians could overhaul my boilers????

Now back on topic, is the Admiral K joining the Syrian Circus, and if so, how is she outfitted???

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Jeff Head said:

Well, let's suppose that they have already started building the Liaoning II. They could finish it in the next four years, and commission it 2 years later...and have it operational two after that (supposing that things go well with both the 1st Liaoning and the J-15).

Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.

Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.

Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.

But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.

If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.

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Exactly, and all may remember I was the no ramp dude when I joined this forum, I did not like ramps, I thought they were much more dangerous and archaic, but thanks to a certain grumpy Dutchmen, "this spoken lovingly Master Delft", I have seen the LIGHT, well anyway, I have accepted that the Flanker/J-15 is a very happy aircraft due to its pussy-cat, hi-lift, hi thrust nature, if you don't believe me, watch that crazy botched approach, and the "insane" recovery on the Admiral K. The Chinese have done very well on the Liaoning, and I will give their training and the lovely J-15 most of the credit,
"yes, I do admire the Chinese Naval Aviators, and they have invested a lot of time and money in flight training, making their first approaches, touch and goes, and coming aboard look like a piece of cake. I fully expect them to continue to operate the J-15s off the ramp on their next carrier, likely to be fitted or prepared for waist cats for the CODs, etc, etc,. brat

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Air Force Brat said:

...is the Admiral K joining the Syrian Circus, and if so, how is she outfitted???

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Nope. No plans for the Kuznetsov or their big nuclear powered battle cruisers to get involved.

They have the Slava Class cruiser, which should get there sometime next week, two Udaloy class destroyers, a modern frigate, and an older Krivak frigate, and the spy ship. They probably have a couple of nuclear attack subs in the area too, but we do not know that.

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Jeff Head said:

Nope. No plans for the Kuznetsov or their big nuclear powered battle cruisers to get involved.

They have the Slava Class cruiser, which should get there sometime next week, two Udaloy class destroyers, a modern frigate, and an older Krivak frigate, and the spy ship. They probably have a couple of nuclear attack subs in the area too, but we do not know that.

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I reckon we might have a coupla our own Nuke Boats in there as well, it could get crowded, and with those fellers I wouldn't doubt somebody is running solutions on somebody else, could get a little like Nascar, bumpin and rubbin on everybody! I just hope BHO lets his buddy Vlad talk him down, ya know he has more flexibility NOW????? Were the French sending their Carrier???? brat

Re: Aircraft Carriers II

Air Force Brat said:

I reckon we might have a coupla our own Nuke Boats in there as well, it could get crowded, and with those fellers I wouldn't doubt somebody is running solutions on somebody else, could get a little like Nascar, bumpin and rubbin on everybody! I just hope BHO lets his buddy Vlad talk him down, ya know he has more flexibility NOW????? Were the French sending their Carrier???? brat

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The French carrier group is probably somewhere between Toulon and the end of the boot, maybe even in the Ionian Sea. Close enough to get involved fairly fast if needed.

You bet we have some SSNs in there. Probably at least two, and maybe one of the Ohio SSGNs to help with the strike.

Would not surprise me if the SAG was a decoy and the strike mostly came from the SSGN and SSNs. The SSGN can carry up to 154 Tomahawks, an the SSNs 12 each. That would be 178 right there. And they can get in closer without fearing any Yahkonts.

But when they start firing, every other sub within 150 miles is going to know it.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

If they build combined STOBAR/CATOBAR carrier with waist EMALS catapult/catapults, why not make preparations for bow cats? Just make a ramp removable if the waist cats are working. If not they still could use it as a pure STOBAR carrier.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

chuck731 said:

They initially went with STOBAR because the extremely influential Soviet minister of defence Dimitri Ustinov was not sold on the notion that allowing fixed wing naval aircraft to develop their full range and payload potential was really worth the added cost of a full sized CATOBAR carrier in the context of overall soviet strategy, despite the intensive lobbying of Soviet Navy. Ustinov was influential enough so that he was effectively the king maker in kremlin, and without his support one could not succeed to the supreme position in the soviet state and the communist party. So his views carried the day over those of the navy.

He was eventually pursuaded to changed his mind, after Kuznetsov has been approved, when the navy invited him to witness the air operation aboard a Kiev class carrier to convince him of the inadaquacy of a carrier lacking catapults. This led to approval of Ulyanovsk while construction of Kuznetsov hasn't proceeded very far.

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Air operations on a Kiev wouldn't prove that a ski ramp wasn't good enough.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

delft said:

Air operations on a Kiev wouldn't prove that a ski ramp wasn't good enough.

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Yet it is what is said to have convinced Dimitri Ustinov.

Remember the Soviet Navy lobbied for a full CATOBAR nuclear super carrier comparable to the Enterprise back in the 1960s. It was shot down by then minister of defence Andrei Grechko because Grechko thought additional capability offered by full carrier was of limited utility to Soviet surface fleet focus of offensive ASW. So Grechko told the navy to make do with a much scaled down, ASW focused Kiev class, and as a minimal concession agreed to Yak-38. Yak-38 is really neither here nor there as for as real capabilities goes, but the navy took it as a very small step in the right direction. When Ustionov succeeded Grechko the Soviet navy focus has changed back to supporting engagement with US carrier battle groups further off shore, so the navy tried again to lobby for a full CATOBAR CVN. Ustinov repeated Grechko's line, but acknowledged Yak-38 was more or less useless and conceeded that successor to the Kiev needs to at least be able to mount a real combat air patrol over the fleet, so was born the Kuznetsov. When Kuznetsov was barely begun but design for her aircraft was already well underway, the navy invited Ustinov to the Kiev (or maybe the Minsk, exact ship I don't remember). I don't know exactly what the navy showed and what the navy alluded to, but Ustinov left convinced Kuznetsov had been a misstep and a full CATOBAR carrier comparable to the Nimitz was needed.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

chuck731 said:

Yet it is what is said to have convinced Dimitri Ustinov.

Remember the Soviet Navy lobbied for a full CATOBAR nuclear super carrier comparable to the Enterprise back in the 1960s. It was shot down by then minister of defence Andrei Grechko because Grechko thought additional capability offered by full carrier was of limited utility to Soviet surface fleet focus of offensive ASW. So Grechko told the navy to make do with a much scaled down, ASW focused Kiev class, and as a minimal concession agreed to Yak-38. Yak-38 is really neither here nor there as for as real capabilities goes, but the navy took it as a very small step in the right direction. When Ustionov succeeded Grechko the Soviet navy focus has changed back to supporting engagement with US carrier battle groups further off shore, so the navy tried again to lobby for a full CATOBAR CVN. Ustinov repeated Grechko's line, but acknowledged Yak-38 was more or less useless and conceeded that successor to the Kiev needs to at least be able to mount a real combat air patrol over the fleet, so was born the Kuznetsov. When Kuznetsov was barely begun but design for her aircraft was already well underway, the navy invited Ustinov to the Kiev (or maybe the Minsk, exact ship I don't remember). I don't know exactly what the navy showed and what the navy alluded to, but Ustinov left convinced Kuznetsov had been a misstep and a full CATOBAR carrier comparable to the Nimitz was needed.

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The Sovjet Union was always defensively orientated at least because it simply lacked economic power and perhaps also for ideological reasons. It was born in a civil war that lasted years, then was confronted by Japan from about 1935 or earlier, by Germany from about the same time. But it is natural for naval officers to want better equipment.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

delft said:

The Sovjet Union was always defensively orientated at least because it simply lacked economic power and perhaps also for ideological reasons. It was born in a civil war that lasted years, then was confronted by Japan from about 1935 or earlier, by Germany from about the same time. But it is natural for naval officers to want better equipment.

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Master Delft, I would respectfully disagree that the Soviet Union has always been defensive, "paranoid schizophrenic" yeah, I am thinking of the purges of their own people under Stalin, a very aggressive stance in the cold war, and the ruthless murder of political opponents, and the famous winter vacations to Siberia, not to be rude, but they seem rather willing to supply arms to Ruthless Dictators????? might give me pause for thought, so as we get back to our discussion of the PLAN Carrier Construction, it would prolly help to stick to the hardware, and yes, sailors and airmen alike want good equipment that give them a chance of survival against the elements, and triumph over their enemies, if it shines up nice and can be used for better purposes so much the better. brat