Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
Classic central planning XD. Thanks for the clarification guys!
Classic central planning XD. Thanks for the clarification guys!
PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
I may not have made myself clear, I was referring to the possibility that even the future indigenous Chinese carriers may include the ramp, from which the J-15s appear to launch quite nicely, hence my "if it ain't broke" comment. The J-31 may need more thrust, since that is open for discussion, and I'm not sure the Russian engines in the prototype/proof of concept aircraft are up to that, as it does take lots of lift and thrust, and the Flanker has plenty of both. brat
I may not have made myself clear, I was referring to the possibility that even the future indigenous Chinese carriers may include the ramp, from which the J-15s appear to launch quite nicely, hence my "if it ain't broke" comment. The J-31 may need more thrust, since that is open for discussion, and I'm not sure the Russian engines in the prototype/proof of concept aircraft are up to that, as it does take lots of lift and thrust, and the Flanker has plenty of both. brat
Re: Aircraft Carriers II
I wish the Indians well with this ship. She must be in an acceptable condition. I know the Indians are pleased to be finally receiving her.
However..no ship is flawless. Something always needs to be tweaked. And wasn't there a problem with the engineering plant?
I wish the Indians well with this ship. She must be in an acceptable condition. I know the Indians are pleased to be finally receiving her.
However..no ship is flawless. Something always needs to be tweaked. And wasn't there a problem with the engineering plant?
franco-russe
Senior Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
I do not expect ever to hear about a defense procurement programme that is not centrally planned...
I do not expect ever to hear about a defense procurement programme that is not centrally planned...
Re: Aircraft Carriers II
That's what was taken care of this last year. The Russians replaced them, and have now run her through all new trials. She attained 32 knots and held it consistantly during these trials.
They then went through flight ops, including nightime flight ops, with the Mig-29Ks and she passed all of those tests.
Finally, the Indians are prepared to take delivery. She will be a tremendous upgrade over the Viraat, which is the old, refitted HMS Hermes which they turned into a jump jet carrier for their Harriers, and which has served a total of over 50 years now.
Yes, the bricks were defective and she could not maintain her top speed during her acceptance trials over a year ago.
That's what was taken care of this last year. The Russians replaced them, and have now run her through all new trials. She attained 32 knots and held it consistantly during these trials.
They then went through flight ops, including nightime flight ops, with the Mig-29Ks and she passed all of those tests.
Finally, the Indians are prepared to take delivery. She will be a tremendous upgrade over the Viraat, which is the old, refitted HMS Hermes which they turned into a jump jet carrier for their Harriers, and which has served a total of over 50 years now.
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
I know. I was trying to clarify the fact that the combined STOBAR and CATOBAR layout of Ulyanovsk was the contingent outcome of midstream policy change, not the optimized result of long standing plan.
Everyone is arguing that Chinese carrier program is a carefully considered long term plan. If that is the case, then I am surprised they still chose to adopt the combined STOBAR/CATOBAR layout in their first indigenous carrier.
If they do chose to adopt this layout, then it would seem seem to betray a certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level to mimic the contingent turns in the Soviets path rather than plot a more direct route to the desired final outcome.
I know. I was trying to clarify the fact that the combined STOBAR and CATOBAR layout of Ulyanovsk was the contingent outcome of midstream policy change, not the optimized result of long standing plan.
Everyone is arguing that Chinese carrier program is a carefully considered long term plan. If that is the case, then I am surprised they still chose to adopt the combined STOBAR/CATOBAR layout in their first indigenous carrier.
If they do chose to adopt this layout, then it would seem seem to betray a certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level to mimic the contingent turns in the Soviets path rather than plot a more direct route to the desired final outcome.
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
If the 1st indegenous carrier is like the Liaoning, it will indicate to me that right now the PLAN and PRC leadership believe that such a design will give them the technical capabilities they need, will maximize the cost benefit for both carriers over their service life, and, if they design the second one appropriately, will also give them the opportunity, either from the outset...or, more likely, to later add waste cats and create a hybrid carrier at a time of their chosing that allows them to minimize risk in moving forward to a full-up CATOBAR design with their 2nd indegenous carrier.
Given the amount of time and money that they have spent, given the ongoing investment they have made in the carrier, the J-15 aircraft and training and logistical facilities, and given the very deliberate steps thay have taken over the last 10 years that we have been watching this, I believe that this is probably what has occurred as opposed to it reflecting a "certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level," on the PLAN's part But that's just my opinion.
I believe that refitting/rebuilding the VAryag into the Liaoning got them into the game and that they made improvements as they could in that process given what they had. I expect that the second carrier will continue that trend and reflect even more improvements (ie. potentially more hanger space, potentially more deck space with a smaller island, etc.)
Then, with their 2nd indegenous carrier, I expect a convetnionally powered CATOBAR with a slightly larger displacement, maybe 80,000 tons.
We shall just have to wait and see.
Or, it could also reflect a considetration of the various options, their budgetary constraints, their technical needs and their near to mid-term maritime needs and reflect what they consider to be the best option at this time.
If the 1st indegenous carrier is like the Liaoning, it will indicate to me that right now the PLAN and PRC leadership believe that such a design will give them the technical capabilities they need, will maximize the cost benefit for both carriers over their service life, and, if they design the second one appropriately, will also give them the opportunity, either from the outset...or, more likely, to later add waste cats and create a hybrid carrier at a time of their chosing that allows them to minimize risk in moving forward to a full-up CATOBAR design with their 2nd indegenous carrier.
Given the amount of time and money that they have spent, given the ongoing investment they have made in the carrier, the J-15 aircraft and training and logistical facilities, and given the very deliberate steps thay have taken over the last 10 years that we have been watching this, I believe that this is probably what has occurred as opposed to it reflecting a "certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level," on the PLAN's part But that's just my opinion.
I believe that refitting/rebuilding the VAryag into the Liaoning got them into the game and that they made improvements as they could in that process given what they had. I expect that the second carrier will continue that trend and reflect even more improvements (ie. potentially more hanger space, potentially more deck space with a smaller island, etc.)
Then, with their 2nd indegenous carrier, I expect a convetnionally powered CATOBAR with a slightly larger displacement, maybe 80,000 tons.
We shall just have to wait and see.
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
Granted, they might be driven by initial risk reduction decision to not mess too much with Varyag's original design, which constrained them design their initial carrier aircrafts for ramp STOBAR. This has the knock on effect of making it appear more economical to make their second carrier adaptable to the same aircrafts, and so on.
They may envision a lengthy transition period from a begining with the pure STOBAR Liaoning to an eventual pure CATOBAR super-carrier with several intermdiate mixed STOBAR/CATOBAR ships in between to leverage J-15. If this is the plan, then it would suggest they envision the first pure CATOBAR carrier to come online as J-15, and perhaps even Liaoning herself, is nearing the end of frontline service live in maybe 20 years.
Granted, they might be driven by initial risk reduction decision to not mess too much with Varyag's original design, which constrained them design their initial carrier aircrafts for ramp STOBAR. This has the knock on effect of making it appear more economical to make their second carrier adaptable to the same aircrafts, and so on.
They may envision a lengthy transition period from a begining with the pure STOBAR Liaoning to an eventual pure CATOBAR super-carrier with several intermdiate mixed STOBAR/CATOBAR ships in between to leverage J-15. If this is the plan, then it would suggest they envision the first pure CATOBAR carrier to come online as J-15, and perhaps even Liaoning herself, is nearing the end of frontline service live in maybe 20 years.
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction
Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.
Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.
Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.
But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.
If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.
Well, let's suppose that they have already started building the Liaoning II. They could finish it in the next four years, and commission it 2 years later...and have it operational two after that (supposing that things go well with both the 1st Liaoning and the J-15).
Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.
Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.
Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.
But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.
If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.