PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

latenlazy said:
All this talk about how the J-15 isn't optimized for CATOBAR brings up an interesting idea. What if the J-15 is only intended to operate off Chinese STOBARs, will never be optimized for cats, and only enters limited production. Instead, CATOBAR optimization will be reserved for a next generation naval fighter, to be timed for production with the completion of the first CATOBAR carrier.
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or one could also ask what were the former Soviet Navy intending to fly off of the Ulyanovsk? she had waist cats. She was probably only a couple years away from completion but I don't think Russia had any catapult capable fighters at that time.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

kwaigonegin said:
or one could also ask what were the former Soviet Navy intending to fly off of the Ulyanovsk? she had waist cats. She was probably only a couple years away from completion but I don't think Russia had any catapult capable fighters at that time.
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Good point. Would that imply the Su-33 could easily be modified for catapults?
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

kwaigonegin said:
or one could also ask what were the former Soviet Navy intending to fly off of the Ulyanovsk? she had waist cats. She was probably only a couple years away from completion but I don't think Russia had any catapult capable fighters at that time.
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She was probably at least a couple of years away from launching, maybe 5 years from sea trial, and 7 -10 years from first deployment.
Known aircraft types meant for her, such as yak-44 AWAC, haven't even reached prototype stage yet when her construction came to a stop.

The fact that she had nose ramp suggests su-33 weren't going to use catapults. Her waist catapults were probably for her Yak-44 AWACS, which were far heavier than the E-2, and any prospective new heavy strike aircraft she might carry to give her real strike capability. I wonder if some more serious modification of the su-27, along the lines of su-34, were envisioned for her.

Of the entire su-27 family, only the su-34 has a totally different nose gear arrangement from all the other members.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

chuck731 said:
She was probably at least a couple of years away from launching, maybe 5 years from sea trial, and 7 -10 years from first deployment.
Known aircraft types meant for her, such as yak-44 AWAC, haven't even reached prototype stage yet when her construction came to a stop.

The fact that she had nose ramp suggests su-33 weren't going to use catapults. Her waist catapults were probably for her Yak-44 AWACS, which were far heavier than the E-2, and any prospective new heavy strike aircraft she might carry to give her real strike capability. I wonder if some more serious modification of the su-27, along the lines of su-34, were envisioned for her.

Of the entire su-27 family, only the su-34 has a totally different nose gear arrangement from all the other members.
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And that brings us to the likelihood that the future carriers will also be "snooty" for the J-15s and J-31, and Cat the big birds off the waist! If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and it works and works well so far, so I guess we all have to wonder what their next move will be??? brat
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

What motivated the ramp on the ulyanovsk is probably not quite "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". When Ulysnovsk was being designed the the kuznetsov and its matching STOBAR aircraft hasn't actually gone to sea yet, and the concept of ramp launched conventional aircraft in a STOBAR arrangment hadn't been proven to not be broken from the get go yet, anywhere.

CATOBAR, on the other hand, has been proven daily for 40 years.

What is clear is when the pure STOBAE Kuznetsov was approved first, there were no CATOBAR carriers in soviet future plans yet. The slightly later CATOBAR ulyanovsk actually represented a significant departure from original plans that occurred after kuznetsov was approved. So it might have simply been ploy to make the change of plan more economical and therefore easier to swallow to give CATOBSR Ulysnovsk the ability to use aircraft already designed for, but not yet proven with, the STOBAR kuznetsov.

It may also reflect lack of confidence that catapults would work with satisfactory reliability when the ship went to sea.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

chuck731 said:
What motivated the ramp on the ulyanovsk is probably not quite "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". When Ulysnovsk was being designed the the kuznetsov and its matching STOBAR aircraft hasn't actually gone to sea yet, and the concept of ramp launched conventional aircraft in a STOBAR arrangment hadn't been proven to not be broken from the get go yet, anywhere.

CATOBAR, on the other hand, has been proven daily for 40 years.

What is clear is when the pure STOBAE Kuznetsov was approved first, there were no CATOBAR carriers in soviet future plans yet. The slightly later CATOBAR ulyanovsk actually represented a significant departure from original plans that occurred after kuznetsov was approved. So it might have simply been ploy to make the change of plan more economical and therefore easier to swallow to give CATOBSR Ulysnovsk the ability to use aircraft already designed for, but not yet proven with, the STOBAR kuznetsov.

It may also reflect lack of confidence that catapults would work with satisfactory reliability when the ship went to sea.
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I seem to remember that one of the reasons they initially went with a STOBAR was that the arctic waters it was expected to perform most of its operations were particularly rough, and CATOBAR would have been the riskier option due to this.
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

latenlazy said:
I seem to remember that one of the reasons they initially went with a STOBAR was that the arctic waters it was expected to perform most of its operations were particularly rough, and CATOBAR would have been the riskier option due to this.
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They initially went with STOBAR because the extremely influential Soviet minister of defence Dimitri Ustinov was not sold on the notion that allowing fixed wing naval aircraft to develop their full range and payload potential was really worth the added cost of a full sized CATOBAR carrier in the context of overall soviet strategy, despite the intensive lobbying of Soviet Navy. Ustinov was influential enough so that he was effectively the king maker in kremlin, and without his support one could not succeed to the supreme position in the soviet state and the communist party. So his views carried the day over those of the navy.

He was eventually pursuaded to changed his mind, after Kuznetsov has been approved, when the navy invited him to witness the air operation aboard a Kiev class carrier to convince him of the inadaquacy of a carrier lacking catapults. This led to approval of Ulyanovsk while construction of Kuznetsov hasn't proceeded very far.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

latenlazy said:
I seem to remember that one of the reasons they initially went with a STOBAR was that the arctic waters it was expected to perform most of its operations were particularly rough, and CATOBAR would have been the riskier option due to this.
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IMHO, if it is too rough to launch with a catapult, then it is too rough to launch at all.
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

A ramp acts as a sort of break water, and aircraft launched from a ramp would enter a steeper climb sooner, so a ramp launch might remain safe in a breaking head sea where a cat launch threaten to send the plane straight into a wave breaking over the bow.

But I bet it won't be safe to recover the aircraft if the head sea is so strong that waves would be breaking over the bow catapult.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Aircraft Carriers II

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The Hindu said:
INS Vikramaditya will be handed over to the Indian Navy on November 15 at a formal ceremony in the Russian northern seaport of Severodvinsk on the White Sea.

The delivery date was confirmed at talks Defence Secretary R.K. Mathur held in Moscow on Monday, according to informed sources.

A high-level Indian defence delegation paid a one-day visit to Moscow to prepare an annual session of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation that will meet in Russia next month under the chair of the two Defence Ministers.

The upgraded and retrofitted aircraft carrier is now completing sea trials and is expected to return to the Sevmash Shipyard in Severodvinsk in the next few weeks.

All systems have performed flawlessly, including daytime and night takeoff and landings by MiG-29K deck fighter planes.
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