PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Aircraft Carriers II

You know the USN wanted a dedicated sea control ship.

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The USN Sea Control ship was killed by politics:

Read the whole article in the link.. too much politics for me..

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One type of ship ADM Zumwalt proposed was the Sea Control Ship (SCS), a small, austere aircraft carrier. Congress did not approve construction, believing that this small carrier could not perform its designed mission. ADM Elmo Zumwalt became the Chief of Naval Operations on 01 July 1970, believing that the United States was experiencing a time of great military crisis. The US was spending most of its defense budget on the Vietnam conflict, and the President and Congress refused to increase appropriations to match continuous Soviet military expansion. A large number of ships were reaching block obsolescence (where a large number of similiar ships -- a block -- become obsolescent within a few years), requiring either replacement or costly, short term repairs. Simultaneously, the Soviets were greatly increasing the size and sophistication of their fleet.

ADM Zumwalt later wrote in 1976: "Her price was to be 100 million 1973 dollars, about one-eighth the cost of a nuclear carrier. Her principal peacetime purpose was to show the flag in dangerous waters, especially the Mediterranean and the Western Pacific ... so that the big carriers ... could withdraw ... and deploy out of reach of an enemy first strike, thus putting themselves in a favorable position to respond to such a strike--and therefore to deter it. ... In a wartime situation the positions ... would be reversed: the big, powerful ones would fight their way into the most dangerous waters, destroying opposition beyond cruise missile range with their planes, and the sea control ships would serve in mid-ocean."

The large carriers have "far too much offensive capability to waste on convoy duty." However, in any actual conflict, ADM Zumwalt. continued: "... there might be at sea as many as 20 convoys of merchantmen, troop transports, and naval auxiliaries in need of air protection from the time they left the reach of land-based air until they entered areas where the deployed carriers were operating .... Eight vessels capable of that mid-ocean job could be built for the price of one full-fledged carrier, which in any case, if it was assigned to convoy duty, could protect only one convoy instead of eight. Moreover the SCS would be fast and easy to build.... Clearly SCS was a good investment..."

VADM Frank H. Price, director of Navy ship acquisition and improvements, contended that "We consider that the concept is fully validated and that the design features will give us an effective, less expensive, but fully capable sea-based air support platform.... The SCS is the most cost effective means of replacing dwindling sea-based air support assets, those that are required in defense of our sea lines. ... we have formulated a ship which can provide effective air support when the presence of a carrier is neither practical nor possible. Like the World War II escort carrier, or CVE, the SCS can be produced in sufficient numbers to provide the requisite protection in the many low threat open ocean areas."

The first request for funds for the SCS, for $29.4 million, was in the FY74 budget. The plan was to request one in FY75, three in FY76, and Lhen two per year for next two FYs, for a total of eight SCSs. Ralph Preston, the chief counsel for the House Appropriations Committee, was against the SCS and swayed Rep. Mahon, the Chairman, against it -- the House approved no money. Several senators of the Senate Appropriations Committee, including Senators McClellan and Young, strongly favored the SCS and the entire High-Low Concept--the Senate approved the $29.4 million. In conference, Congress agreed to retain, but freeze the money, pending a report by the General Accounting Office. The report, submitted after ADM Zumwalt retired, was negative [this according to ADM Zumwalt's memoirs, though there is no evidence of such a report]. Congress refused to fund SCS due to limited size, capability and speed.

The Sea Control Ship was quite controversial. The idea of an austere warship deeply troubled some, like ADM Rickover and the nuclear power community, who feared it was an alternative to nuclear powered large aircraft carriers. Others, like the naval aviation community, believed this ship might replace the large-deck carrier regardless of propulsion plant. Still others, like civilian naval analysts Norman Friedman and Norman Polmar, questioned the ship's mission. Norman Polmar, a noted naval analyst and participant in some of the planning, in 1977 wrote: "The logic of this approach is valid. In fact, there does not appear to be any better alternative. The concept has been reaffirmed by Admiral Holloway and Secretaries of Defense Schlesinger and Rumsfeld .... There can be useful questioning of specific types with the high-low mix. For example, I questioned -- before congressional committees and in print -- the validity of the sea control ship. However, an additional, dedicated aviation ship of less capability (and cost) than the CVN was, and still is, required."

The SCS was not built by the US Navy and no dedicated, fixed-wing-aircraft-capable ship exists to fill the mission of open-ocean ASW and convoy escort. The design of the SCS was sold to Spain in 1977, where, with some modifications, it was used to build the Principe de Asturias. The layout of the Principe de Asturias, an aircraft carrier that has been in service with the Spanish Navy since 1988, was partly derived from the design of the US Navy Sea Control Ship. The hull was laid down in 1979 and the ship was launched in 1982.

In 1981 the LHA-4 Nassau undertook a proof of concept demonstration of the Sea Control mission, operating 19 [or 20, depending on the source] Harriers. Nassau again embarked 20 Harriers in 1990 for operations in Iraq. And during Opeation Iraqi Freedom in 2003, both LHD-5 Bataan and LHD-6 Bon Homme Richard each operated 24 Harriers
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

I am thinking it is more likely their operations people have no confidence that their catapults would be ready for prime time when their new carrier is ready, so they instructed their designers to hedged.

I have to disagree.. there is no hedging here. A catapult is absolutely essential to a carrier so it's either good to go and put it on or it isn't. If it's good to go then it will be a combo ramp and cat on the angle deck like the Liaoning # 2 CGI. If it isn't then there will be none period.
China can be masters of catapult but it still doesn't mean there will be catapult on the forward bow end. I just honestly don't think that PLAN will redesign the entire front end of hull of the ship just to accomodate the forward cat.
They will have plenty of opportunity for them to put cats on their indigenous CATOBAR when the time comes.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Obviously a carrier is of some use even if its intended catapult is not ready. Otherwise the Liaoning would be hard to explain. However, evidently a carrier would be of more use if it had fully functioning catapults, and it would be even better if had catapults for all launch stations. So it is quite reasonable to hedge by giving a carrier both ramp and catapults if one recognize the advantage of catapults, but there is doubt about whether the catapults would be fully ready when the carrier first put to sea.
 

no_name

Colonel
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

They might build a liaoning plus first, but it would be nice if they can make the hanger space wider. There was no extension done to liaoning's hangar lengthwise, because it would not have helped much as the main constrain is actually the width, which is why they have turntables for the hangar entrance.

Soviet naval doctrine required all carried aircraft to be able to fit inside the hangars if needed, due to the harsh sea conditions that their fleet is based. Planes on American carriers typically only going into hangars if major work is reuqired, (in the sense that the hangar was more of a workspace) otherwise they are parked on deck as much as possible, with light mainentance done on deck.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

They might build a liaoning plus first, but it would be nice if they can make the hanger space wider. There was no extension done to liaoning's hangar lengthwise, because it would not have helped much as the main constrain is actually the width, which is why they have turntables for the hangar entrance.

Soviet naval doctrine required all carried aircraft to be able to fit inside the hangars if needed, due to the harsh see conditions that their fleet is based. Planes on American carriers typically only going into hangars if major work is reuqired, (in the sense that the hangar was more of a workspace) otherwise they are parked on deck as much as possible, with light mainentance done on deck.
Well, I'm hanging with my own prediction:

2nd Carrier: An improved Liaoning possibly either directly adding two waist cats, or making provisions for them
3rd Carrier: A purpose built conventionally powered CATOBAR carrier with no ski jump. New, larger hull design.
4th Carrier: 2nd vessel of the conventional CATOBAR Class.
5th Carrier: A nuclear powered CATOBAR Carrier, possible based on the earlier catobar hull, or a new, larger hull.
6th Carrier: 2nd nuclear powered CATOBAR Carrier, perfecting the design and establishing the class for furure builds to replace earlier carriers as they reach the end of their service life.

I think we will see proof positive of the 2nd carrier build within 12-18 months. I do not think what we are seeing right now is a carrier, I still believe we are seeing at least one, and possible two LHAs being built. The Type 075.

Time will tell.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

I am guessing they will take it slow and after the first domestic carrier is laid down, they won't laid down another carrier until the Liaoning has undertaken operational patrols and their first domestic carrier is or is nearly finished.

So 1st carrier laid down in 2013-2014, about 65,000 tons, based closely on the Varyag.

Big gap of 5-7 years.

2nd and 3rd carriers would be laid down and built in parallel around 2020, about 95,000 tons, nuclear powered, more or less clean slate design.

The engine compartment design of the chinese CVN may be based on the Ulyanovsk, but I don't buy the notion that the overall layout of the indigenous Chinese CVN will be based closely on either the Varyag or the Ulyanovsk.

I am guessing 4th and 5th carrier will also follow only after a big gap, after 2nd and 3rd unit have commissioned and worked up.

So 4th and 5th carriers may not be laid down until 2030. Thereafter they would build at a series production rate of one every 3-4 years.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

The carrier demonstration module at JNCX has sat there nearly a year, apparently. Chances are the second carrier will shortly follow the first at shanghai, while the first is constructed at dalian.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Well, I'm hanging with my own prediction:

2nd Carrier: An improved Liaoning possibly either directly adding two waist cats, or making provisions for them
3rd Carrier: A purpose built conventionally powered CATOBAR carrier with no ski jump. New, larger hull design.
4th Carrier: 2nd vessel of the conventional CATOBAR Class.
5th Carrier: A nuclear powered CATOBAR Carrier, possible based on the earlier catobar hull, or a new, larger hull.
6th Carrier: 2nd nuclear powered CATOBAR Carrier, perfecting the design and establishing the class for furure builds to replace earlier carriers as they reach the end of their service life.

I think we will see proof positive of the 2nd carrier build within 12-18 months. I do not think what we are seeing right now is a carrier, I still believe we are seeing at least one, and possible two LHAs being built. The Type 075.

Time will tell.

That's what I think will happen as well. The only unknown is timeline. Will they wait till one is almost done before they start building the next one or will they overlap somewhat? By the time the 6th carrier commissions we're talking 25 to 35 years from now. Who knows what PLAN will be then and or how robust China's naval shipbuilding industry will be.

IF their GDP is in the $50 trillion mark by mid century as predicted by PwC there is no reason why PLAN can built 3 supercarriers concurrently. By then Liaoning and her sister ship will most likely be replaced as well or very near to it and no doubt they will be replaced by 100K - 120K ton CVNs probably very similar to the Ford class. Assuming she isn't deactivated/loss prematurely the last captain of USS Gerald Ford is not even born yet. Actually heck there is a chance his/her parents are not even born yet either!!!
 

Engineer

Major
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Here is the issue. Rumors surrounding China's first domestic carrier say that the ship resembles the Liaoning. Resemble can mean a 99% replica of Liaoning, or be as superficial as having a ski-ramp with everything else being different. There is a lot of room left for interpretation.

Keep in mind that the way China uses the Liaoning and the way Soviet intended to use the Kuznetsov class is different. Copying the Liaoning would mean having another hull that does not fully suit the purpose of China. So personally, I don't see there is much chance that China's first domestic carrier will look like the Liaoning appearance-wise.

Now, some of you may say that the exterior can stay the same while the interior can be different. While that is true, I think modification of the external is more simple than rearranging the internals. So if the internals of China's first domestic carrier is going to be different than the Liaoning's, then there is a good chance the exterior would be different as well.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Except for provision for heavy AshM and possible for a large bow sonar, how else do you think the way soviets intended to use the Kuznetsov made its basic design unsuitable for Chinese needs?

I do think the first new Chinese carrier will be visually different from liaoning because it will incorporate faired in, slope sided and faceted signature reduction shaping of almost all contemporary warships including every new Chinese warship for the last 15 years. The Chinese would also likely adopt the design to suite contemporary modular construction techniques, where as soviets appeared to have used traditional framing techniques to build the kuznetsov and Ulyanovsk.

There might also fewer or no even no hullside weapon sponsons as the chinese show no sign of wanting to provide their carrier with 8 CIWS and 192 short range missile silos as the soviets did with Varyag. But these require only superficial changes.

But I suspect the internal layout and underwater passive defence designs of this ship would be based closely on the Varyag's.
 
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