PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Lion said:

Instead of Shi Lang, why not Zheng Chen Kong? Koxinga... He drive out the Dutch from Taiwan.

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He's born to a family of very powerful pirates and traders (later recruited into Ming's court), his mother is Japanese, first 6 years of his life lived in Japan, fought the Qing Dynasty all his life. He's just as checkered.

While in the decades since the Cultural Revolution, Zheng Chen Kong is once again hailed as a historical hero but whether using Shi Lang or Zheng Chen Kong, it'd undoubtedly seen as taking pot shots at Taiwan, especially Taiwan wants to be independent so badly...in short, it flies against the current line of Beijing's policy of "hearts and minds and wallet"...

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

vesicles said:

I think many think Shi Lang sounds possible because he conquered Taiwan. However, Shi Lang was a Chinese general who used to serve the old Ming dynasty and Taiwan and later surrendered to Qing. This made him a traitor who helped his enemy defeat his old boss. I don't think this sits well with the Chinese govn't. I think traditionally, Chinese leaders have a thing against people who switch sides. there is an old saying: those who switch sides cannot be trusted (If he/she switches once, he/she will switch again...). Plus, the Chinese govn't has been glorifying all the Chinese national heroes forever, like Zheng He, Yang's generals and Yue Fei, but no one ever mentioned anything about Shi Lang. I mean ever! I bet most Chinese people don't even know who Shi Lang actually was, except what the famous author Jin Yong described in his fictional novel, Count of Mount Deer.

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Well, Shi Lang is probably the most famous naval admiral to have won battles. I don't think Zheng He would be a very appropriate name for a warship.

Yes, Shi Lang defected to the Qing, but the Chinese government has nothing against Qing, as seen by the myriads of Qing-era TV shows produced by CCTV. What Shi Lang more likely invokes is his retaking of Taiwan, which is why I think it is a rather audacious name.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

MwRYum said:

He's born to a family of very powerful pirates and traders (later recruited into Ming's court), his mother is Japanese, first 6 years of his life lived in Japan, fought the Qing Dynasty all his life. He's just as checkered.

While in the decades since the Cultural Revolution, Zheng Chen Kong is once again hailed as a historical hero but whether using Shi Lang or Zheng Chen Kong, it'd undoubtedly seen as taking pot shots at Taiwan, especially Taiwan wants to be independent so badly...in short, it flies against the current line of Beijing's policy of "hearts and minds and wallet"...

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Actually,u are quite right. He is quite a popular figure in japan as many consider him half Japanese.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

As a Chinese I don't like the name "shi Lang" either. He was not famous in China and many people actually didn't know about him. I think mostly the navy will use some big cities names after the carrier. Some forums had sources said it may be named "Beijing", but until it really sails out, we will never know what it called.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

solarz said:

Well, Shi Lang is probably the most famous naval admiral to have won battles. I don't think Zheng He would be a very appropriate name for a warship.

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Yep, China seems to lack famous navy commanders... Although China has many rivers and has long a coast line, historically China has been mainly a land force.

What about Zhou Yu? He's probably one of the most famous navy commanders in Chinese history. He used his navy and defeated an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent.

What about those navy commanders described in the novel Shui Hu, which perhaps has the most naval battles described in a novel.

solarz said:

Yes, Shi Lang defected to the Qing, but the Chinese government has nothing against Qing, as seen by the myriads of Qing-era TV shows produced by CCTV. What Shi Lang more likely invokes is his retaking of Taiwan, which is why I think it is a rather audacious name.

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It's not about Shi Lang's final alliance with Qing since Qing is considered a Chinese dynasty and Manchurian is one of the China's minority groups. I think the problem is the fact that he defected and changed sides, which means he's not loyal.

About Zheng Chenggong, his son supported the late Ming court in Taiwan. It would be hard to believe that the CCP govn't would want to name its first carrier after a guy who supported Taiwan independence...

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

vesicles said:

Yep, China seems to lack famous navy commanders... Although China has many rivers and has long a coast line, historically China has been mainly a land force.

What about Zhou Yu? He's probably one of the most famous navy commanders in Chinese history. He used his navy and defeated an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent.

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Nah... I think Zhou Yu is ingrained in the minds of most Chinese as "second-rate" (to Zhu Geliang).

It's not about Shi Lang's final alliance with Qing since Qing is considered a Chinese dynasty and Manchurian is one of the China's minority groups. I think the problem is the fact that he defected and changed sides, which means he's not loyal.

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Actually, Shi Lang is quite loyal, up until the point his liege decides to kill him and his family. Unlike Wu Sanggui, Shi Lang never betrayed Qing.

He's no Yue Fei, that's for sure, but then Yue Fei's loyalty isn't exactly praised as a positive example!

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

What about Zheng Chenggong (aka Konxinga)? He was the pro-Ming admiral whose descendants Shi Lang defeated. He had some good victories in defense of "China" (he was fighting to restore the Ming during the early part of the Qing Dynasty). He also fought the Dutch and Portuguese I think. He scored some of China's first victories against the Western sea powers. But considering he basically made Taiwan an independent kingdom the PRC might not like that so much.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

bladerunner said:

Ill go along with Vesicles on this one, can you imagine the US navy naming one of her ships the " Benedict Arnold"?

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I do not think that analogy holds at all. Benedict Arnold was a hero to the US revolution and then because he wasn;t given the types of position he wanted and because he felt the Britsh, particularly through his wife's connections would, he defected.

The General Washington and the US leaders did not try to kill him beforehand or seek to do away with him.

I believe Shi Lang defected after his own leaders were seeking to kill him and/or his family...I believe over differences he had with Zheng Zhilong's son Koxinga, after he had served Zneg Zhilong for 5-6 years as a cptain in their family fleet. Was the son jealous? Were there differences in operation or command? I don't know. But my studies indicated that he defected after the threat of death was revealed. in fact, after he defected they did kill members of his family. Is that correct?

If so, then IMHO there is no analogy to really compare him to Benedict Arnold.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Jeff Head said:

I do not think that analogy holds at all. Benedict Arnold was a hero to the US revolution and then because he wasn;t given the types of position he wanted and because he felt the Britsh, particularly through his wife's connections would, he defected.

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Ok, So Arnold and Shi Lang were motivated to do what they did for entirely different reasons. But that doesnt bely the fact that they are controversial figures in a uncomplimentary way, therefore I would find it hard to believe that China or USA would give their heroes that sort of national recognition.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

solarz said:

He's no Yue Fei, that's for sure, but then Yue Fei's loyalty isn't exactly praised as a positive example!

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What? What are you talking about? There are temples built for Yue Fei. He has been thought to be possibly THE national hero in Chinese history. what part of him is not positive, except he put down a couple peasant rebellion, which might not sit well with the CCP?