PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Please note, my comments were based on the premise that the sub already had a good idea of where the sub was, either from its own bouys, or from other assets...and then began prosecuting that location. If there is a sub there, he's in deep kaka if two ASW helos are on him at that point.

Another critical note is that a large task force, transiting an area with multiple ASW helos and other assets patrolling, will clear the potential approach vectors for enemy subs (and with the US, they will use one or two fast attack subs to haunt those vectors as well). In the end, in the open sea, the enemy sub has to come to the task force to prosecute its targets...or at the very least know where the task force is if they want to use missiles...which will be effective against a well defended task force in my mind than torpedoes. It's just that you have to do a lot more to get in a position to fire a torpedo.

This is always an advantage to the defender because they will scour those areas of approa chand set their sonar bouys accordingly.

When a task force has to transit a choke point, the advantage shifts...but still the ASW assetts know that the enemy subs may well use those choke points and lie in wait so you can bet that the ASW assets of the task force will also focus there when the time comes.

In the end, strategies, feints, the technical capabilities of the equipment, the experience levels of those using that equipment, and the rules of engagement on both sides will all come together to effect the outcome.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Please note, my comments were based on the premise that the sub already had a good idea of where the sub was, either from its own bouys, or from other assets...and then began prosecuting that location. If there is a sub there, he's in deep kaka if two ASW helos are on him at that point.

Another critical note is that a large task force, transiting an area with multiple ASW helos and other assets patrolling, will clear the potential approach vectors for enemy subs (and with the US, they will use one or two fast attack subs to haunt those vectors as well). In the end, in the open sea, the enemy sub has to come to the task force to prosecute its targets...or at the very least know where the task force is if they want to use missiles...which will be effective against a well defended task force in my mind than torpedoes. It's just that you have to do a lot more to get in a position to fire a torpedo.

This is always an advantage to the defender because they will scour those areas of approa chand set their sonar bouys accordingly.

When a task force has to transit a choke point, the advantage shifts...but still the ASW assetts know that the enemy subs may well use those choke points and lie in wait so you can bet that the ASW assets of the task force will also focus there when the time comes.

In the end, strategies, feints, the technical capabilities of the equipment, the experience levels of those using that equipment, and the rules of engagement on both sides will all come together to effect the outcome.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Please note, my comments were based on the premise that the sub already had a good idea of where the sub was, either from its own bouys, or from other assets...and then began prosecuting that location. If there is a sub there, he's in deep kaka if two ASW helos are on him at that point.

Another critical note is that a large task force, transiting an area with multiple ASW helos and other assets patrolling, will clear the potential approach vectors for enemy subs (and with the US, they will use one or two fast attack subs to haunt those vectors as well). In the end, in the open sea, the enemy sub has to come to the task force to prosecute its targets...or at the very least know where the task force is if they want to use missiles...which will be effective against a well defended task force in my mind than torpedoes. It's just that you have to do a lot more to get in a position to fire a torpedo.

This is always an advantage to the defender because they will scour those areas of approa chand set their sonar bouys accordingly.

When a task force has to transit a choke point, the advantage shifts...but still the ASW assetts know that the enemy subs may well use those choke points and lie in wait so you can bet that the ASW assets of the task force will also focus there when the time comes.

In the end, strategies, feints, the technical capabilities of the equipment, the experience levels of those using that equipment, and the rules of engagement on both sides will all come together to effect the outcome.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Crobato, I'm an old H-3 driver. I know dipping sonar. You apparently know nothing. Ever flown an ASW exercise? Guess not. Even the old equipment in the SH-3 had a passive mode. But you didn't dip until you had a pretty good datum gained from your sonobuoy pattern. It takes some skill to fly a precise pattern over the ocean, carefully laying a pattern of sonobuoys in the water, while your SENSO listens carefully and watches his ( or her! ) waterfall display for interesting frequencies. After you have a good looking datum you or your partner, we worked in pairs, would put the dome in the water for a listen. You could get a bearing this way, and some sense of range from the intensity of the sound. Keep in mind these sonars only had a range of maybe 1 nm, newer sonars used in the MH-60 have far greater ranges ( actual figures are of course classified ) and a depth of some 1400 feet. You would dip several times, tag teaming the sub using passive means only ( though a good sub might hear your downwash on the surface, it would be very reluctant to put the pedal to the metal and run, they know that outrunning two helos is impossible and the resulting racket would draw in more helos like flies to a dung heap ) . So you patiently play the game until the crew thinks they are close enough to "go hammer" and light off the active sonar. Yes this gives the game away but by then it is too late for the sub. Now you have both bearing and range to your datum and your partner is on top streaming the MAD bird. If the MAD gives a positive indication it's topedos away. Btw, Mk-50 is fast enough and deep diving enough to take care of any Russian SSN, even an Akula. I'v been there son, you haven't. Two dipping sonar helos with crews who know their craft and that sub is gone.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Crobato, I'm an old H-3 driver. I know dipping sonar. You apparently know nothing. Ever flown an ASW exercise? Guess not. Even the old equipment in the SH-3 had a passive mode. But you didn't dip until you had a pretty good datum gained from your sonobuoy pattern. It takes some skill to fly a precise pattern over the ocean, carefully laying a pattern of sonobuoys in the water, while your SENSO listens carefully and watches his ( or her! ) waterfall display for interesting frequencies. After you have a good looking datum you or your partner, we worked in pairs, would put the dome in the water for a listen. You could get a bearing this way, and some sense of range from the intensity of the sound. Keep in mind these sonars only had a range of maybe 1 nm, newer sonars used in the MH-60 have far greater ranges ( actual figures are of course classified ) and a depth of some 1400 feet. You would dip several times, tag teaming the sub using passive means only ( though a good sub might hear your downwash on the surface, it would be very reluctant to put the pedal to the metal and run, they know that outrunning two helos is impossible and the resulting racket would draw in more helos like flies to a dung heap ) . So you patiently play the game until the crew thinks they are close enough to "go hammer" and light off the active sonar. Yes this gives the game away but by then it is too late for the sub. Now you have both bearing and range to your datum and your partner is on top streaming the MAD bird. If the MAD gives a positive indication it's topedos away. Btw, Mk-50 is fast enough and deep diving enough to take care of any Russian SSN, even an Akula. I'v been there son, you haven't. Two dipping sonar helos with crews who know their craft and that sub is gone.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

The problem of ASW helos is that they use active sonars,which means they can be heard from afar, giving their general location well ahead of any sub so that the sub can take countermeasures. Long range low frequency passive sonars have to be huge and requires a lot of juice, which means they can only be fitted on ships and subs. Especially nuclear subs. You can't carry those around in a helo. Even if found, some of the newer subs are getting pretty good in countering active echoes, like in the way they are shaped, or with newer developments in the coating. Coatings around subs are not meant for quieting, they're meant for absorbing active sonars.

Helos can only use light torpedos. That's going to have limitations on depth. Even if they can physically reach that deep, they lack the speed and endurance of heavy torpedoes which can carry more battery power or fuel and can be encased with greater protection against deep water pressures. Furthermore, the heavy torpedo can also be wire guided, which means they can be commanded guided after launch by the ship or sub (well very few surface ships carry heavy torpedos anyway like the Udaloys). The light torpedo once it hits the surface, is pretty much on its own.

So Popeye is correct. Best counter to a sub is another sub.

Click to expand...

Crobato, I'm an old H-3 driver. I know dipping sonar. You apparently know nothing. Ever flown an ASW exercise? Guess not. Even the old equipment in the SH-3 had a passive mode. But you didn't dip until you had a pretty good datum gained from your sonobuoy pattern. It takes some skill to fly a precise pattern over the ocean, carefully laying a pattern of sonobuoys in the water, while your SENSO listens carefully and watches his ( or her! ) waterfall display for interesting frequencies. After you have a good looking datum you or your partner, we worked in pairs, would put the dome in the water for a listen. You could get a bearing this way, and some sense of range from the intensity of the sound. Keep in mind these sonars only had a range of maybe 1 nm, newer sonars used in the MH-60 have far greater ranges ( actual figures are of course classified ) and a depth of some 1400 feet. You would dip several times, tag teaming the sub using passive means only ( though a good sub might hear your downwash on the surface, it would be very reluctant to put the pedal to the metal and run, they know that outrunning two helos is impossible and the resulting racket would draw in more helos like flies to a dung heap ) . So you patiently play the game until the crew thinks they are close enough to "go hammer" and light off the active sonar. Yes this gives the game away but by then it is too late for the sub. Now you have both bearing and range to your datum and your partner is on top streaming the MAD bird. If the MAD gives a positive indication it's topedos away. Btw, Mk-50 is fast enough and deep diving enough to take care of any Russian SSN, even an Akula. I'v been there son, you haven't. Two dipping sonar helos with crews who know their craft and that sub is gone.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

ff

I'm an old H-3 driver.

Click to expand...

What squadron? I was an ordie in HSL-31 over 30 years ago. And I was in HC-11 now HSC-21 from 83-85. I had changed my rate to PR by then.

Please answer by private message.ff

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

ff

I'm an old H-3 driver.

Click to expand...

What squadron? I was an ordie in HSL-31 over 30 years ago. And I was in HC-11 now HSC-21 from 83-85. I had changed my rate to PR by then.

Please answer by private message.ff

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

ff

I'm an old H-3 driver.

Click to expand...

What squadron? I was an ordie in HSL-31 over 30 years ago. And I was in HC-11 now HSC-21 from 83-85. I had changed my rate to PR by then.

Please answer by private message.ff

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Mu Shu Tortilla said:

Crobato, I'm an old H-3 driver. I know dipping sonar. You apparently know nothing. Ever flown an ASW exercise? Guess not. Even the old equipment in the SH-3 had a passive mode. But you didn't dip until you had a pretty good datum gained from your sonobuoy pattern. It takes some skill to fly a precise pattern over the ocean, carefully laying a pattern of sonobuoys in the water, while your SENSO listens carefully and watches his ( or her! ) waterfall display for interesting frequencies. After you have a good looking datum you or your partner, we worked in pairs, would put the dome in the water for a listen. You could get a bearing this way, and some sense of range from the intensity of the sound. Keep in mind these sonars only had a range of maybe 1 nm, newer sonars used in the MH-60 have far greater ranges ( actual figures are of course classified ) and a depth of some 1400 feet. You would dip several times, tag teaming the sub using passive means only ( though a good sub might hear your downwash on the surface, it would be very reluctant to put the pedal to the metal and run, they know that outrunning two helos is impossible and the resulting racket would draw in more helos like flies to a dung heap ) . So you patiently play the game until the crew thinks they are close enough to "go hammer" and light off the active sonar. Yes this gives the game away but by then it is too late for the sub. Now you have both bearing and range to your datum and your partner is on top streaming the MAD bird. If the MAD gives a positive indication it's topedos away. Btw, Mk-50 is fast enough and deep diving enough to take care of any Russian SSN, even an Akula. I'v been there son, you haven't. Two dipping sonar helos with crews who know their craft and that sub is gone.

Click to expand...

Wow, looks like a very old system.

You still have not laid out how your sonobuoys cope with

-changes in temperature, acidity and salinity that creates boundary layers that block off echoes or creates distortions on the echoes.
-working in an environment that has a lot of other background noise. Like having thousands of it.
-When the sub is more than quiet enough to match the background noise.

Your description of this

"while your SENSO listens carefully and watches his ( or her! ) waterfall display for interesting frequencies. "

Simply isn't enough anymore to cut it against modern quiet subs. Especially in a littoral environment.

The job is more like trying to catch and isolate the sounds of a Lexus in the middle of a New York traffic intersection. Figure out why modern subs like the Virginia carry data processing centers.