PLAN Carrier Construction

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Gorthaur

New Member
If they build combined STOBAR/CATOBAR carrier with waist EMALS catapult/catapults, why not make preparations for bow cats? Just make a ramp removable if the waist cats are working. If not they still could use it as a pure STOBAR carrier.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
chuck731 said:
They initially went with STOBAR because the extremely influential Soviet minister of defence Dimitri Ustinov was not sold on the notion that allowing fixed wing naval aircraft to develop their full range and payload potential was really worth the added cost of a full sized CATOBAR carrier in the context of overall soviet strategy, despite the intensive lobbying of Soviet Navy. Ustinov was influential enough so that he was effectively the king maker in kremlin, and without his support one could not succeed to the supreme position in the soviet state and the communist party. So his views carried the day over those of the navy.

He was eventually pursuaded to changed his mind, after Kuznetsov has been approved, when the navy invited him to witness the air operation aboard a Kiev class carrier to convince him of the inadaquacy of a carrier lacking catapults. This led to approval of Ulyanovsk while construction of Kuznetsov hasn't proceeded very far.
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Air operations on a Kiev wouldn't prove that a ski ramp wasn't good enough.
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
delft said:
Air operations on a Kiev wouldn't prove that a ski ramp wasn't good enough.
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Yet it is what is said to have convinced Dimitri Ustinov.

Remember the Soviet Navy lobbied for a full CATOBAR nuclear super carrier comparable to the Enterprise back in the 1960s. It was shot down by then minister of defence Andrei Grechko because Grechko thought additional capability offered by full carrier was of limited utility to Soviet surface fleet focus of offensive ASW. So Grechko told the navy to make do with a much scaled down, ASW focused Kiev class, and as a minimal concession agreed to Yak-38. Yak-38 is really neither here nor there as for as real capabilities goes, but the navy took it as a very small step in the right direction. When Ustionov succeeded Grechko the Soviet navy focus has changed back to supporting engagement with US carrier battle groups further off shore, so the navy tried again to lobby for a full CATOBAR CVN. Ustinov repeated Grechko's line, but acknowledged Yak-38 was more or less useless and conceeded that successor to the Kiev needs to at least be able to mount a real combat air patrol over the fleet, so was born the Kuznetsov. When Kuznetsov was barely begun but design for her aircraft was already well underway, the navy invited Ustinov to the Kiev (or maybe the Minsk, exact ship I don't remember). I don't know exactly what the navy showed and what the navy alluded to, but Ustinov left convinced Kuznetsov had been a misstep and a full CATOBAR carrier comparable to the Nimitz was needed.
 
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D

delft

Brigadier
chuck731 said:
Yet it is what is said to have convinced Dimitri Ustinov.

Remember the Soviet Navy lobbied for a full CATOBAR nuclear super carrier comparable to the Enterprise back in the 1960s. It was shot down by then minister of defence Andrei Grechko because Grechko thought additional capability offered by full carrier was of limited utility to Soviet surface fleet focus of offensive ASW. So Grechko told the navy to make do with a much scaled down, ASW focused Kiev class, and as a minimal concession agreed to Yak-38. Yak-38 is really neither here nor there as for as real capabilities goes, but the navy took it as a very small step in the right direction. When Ustionov succeeded Grechko the Soviet navy focus has changed back to supporting engagement with US carrier battle groups further off shore, so the navy tried again to lobby for a full CATOBAR CVN. Ustinov repeated Grechko's line, but acknowledged Yak-38 was more or less useless and conceeded that successor to the Kiev needs to at least be able to mount a real combat air patrol over the fleet, so was born the Kuznetsov. When Kuznetsov was barely begun but design for her aircraft was already well underway, the navy invited Ustinov to the Kiev (or maybe the Minsk, exact ship I don't remember). I don't know exactly what the navy showed and what the navy alluded to, but Ustinov left convinced Kuznetsov had been a misstep and a full CATOBAR carrier comparable to the Nimitz was needed.
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The Sovjet Union was always defensively orientated at least because it simply lacked economic power and perhaps also for ideological reasons. It was born in a civil war that lasted years, then was confronted by Japan from about 1935 or earlier, by Germany from about the same time. But it is natural for naval officers to want better equipment.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
delft said:
The Sovjet Union was always defensively orientated at least because it simply lacked economic power and perhaps also for ideological reasons. It was born in a civil war that lasted years, then was confronted by Japan from about 1935 or earlier, by Germany from about the same time. But it is natural for naval officers to want better equipment.
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Master Delft, I would respectfully disagree that the Soviet Union has always been defensive, "paranoid schizophrenic" yeah, I am thinking of the purges of their own people under Stalin, a very aggressive stance in the cold war, and the ruthless murder of political opponents, and the famous winter vacations to Siberia, not to be rude, but they seem rather willing to supply arms to Ruthless Dictators????? might give me pause for thought, so as we get back to our discussion of the PLAN Carrier Construction, it would prolly help to stick to the hardware, and yes, sailors and airmen alike want good equipment that give them a chance of survival against the elements, and triumph over their enemies, if it shines up nice and can be used for better purposes so much the better. brat
 
F

foxmulder

Junior Member
Jeff Head said:
Well, let's suppose that they have already started building the Liaoning II. They could finish it in the next four years, and commission it 2 years later...and have it operational two after that (supposing that things go well with both the 1st Liaoning and the J-15).

Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.

Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.

Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.

But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.

If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.
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Divide all the time scales you gave by 2 :)
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
SinoSoldier said:
Whatever happened to the photo of what seemed to be a amphibious assault ship near completion?
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The thing at JNCX? That was a subsized demo module combined with an optical illusion.
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
bd popeye said:
Not going to happen.. It takes the US seven years to build a CVN. It takes about five years to build and LHA/LHD...
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The 7 years it takes for USN to build a Mimitz class CVN is made possible by the fact the United States has had the Nimitz class carrier in continuous series production at the same yard for 40 years. The first indigenous Chinese carrier, being the first ever, will likely take substantially longer to build and much longer to work out all the adjustments and issues before the ship is truly ready for full service, although any lengthy period of pre-service adjustment may not be appearent to the outside observer.

If the second Chinese indigenous Chinese carrier was to be yet another new design, say full CATOBAR with nuclear power, then I think it the second ship would also take substantially longer than 7 years.

This is why I suspect the first Chinese indigenous Chinese carrier won't be a one ship class. To benefit from experience and economy of scale, they will build a class of 2 or 3, which will take them 10-15 years, especially of they stagger the builds to enable the second ship to incorporate experience gained building the first. If they start their first domestic carrier today, they ship won't be finished until after 2020, and won't be fully ready for several more years. The second ship probably won't see service till the late 2020s.
 
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