PLAN Carrier Construction

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
A ramp acts as a sort of break water, and aircraft launched from a ramp would enter a steeper climb sooner, so a ramp launch might remain safe in a breaking head sea where a cat launch threaten to send the plane straight into a wave breaking over the bow.

But I bet it won't be safe to recover the aircraft if the head sea is so strong that waves would be breaking over the bow catapult.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
chuck731 said:
They initially went with STOBAR because the then Soviet minister of defence was not sold on the notion that allowing fixed wing naval aircraft to develop their full range and payload potential was really worth the added cost of a full sized CATOBAR carrier, despite the lobbying of Soviet Navy.

He changed his mind, after Kuznetsov has been approved, when he was invited by the navy to witness the air operation aboard a Kiev class carrier.
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Classic central planning XD. Thanks for the clarification guys!
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
chuck731 said:
What motivated the ramp on the ulyanovsk is probably not quite "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". When Ulysnovsk was being designed the the kuznetsov and its matching STOBAR aircraft hasn't actually gone to sea yet, and the concept of ramp launched conventional aircraft in a STOBAR arrangment hadn't been proven to not be broken from the get go yet, anywhere.

CATOBAR, on the other hand, has been proven daily for 40 years.

What is clear is when the pure STOBAE Kuznetsov was approved first, there were no CATOBAR carriers in soviet future plans yet. The slightly later CATOBAR ulyanovsk actually represented a significant departure from original plans that occurred after kuznetsov was approved. So it might have simply been ploy to make the change of plan more economical and therefore easier to swallow to give CATOBSR Ulysnovsk the ability to use aircraft already designed for, but not yet proven with, the STOBAR kuznetsov.

It may also reflect lack of confidence that catapults would work with satisfactory reliability when the ship went to sea.
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I may not have made myself clear, I was referring to the possibility that even the future indigenous Chinese carriers may include the ramp, from which the J-15s appear to launch quite nicely, hence my "if it ain't broke" comment. The J-31 may need more thrust, since that is open for discussion, and I'm not sure the Russian engines in the prototype/proof of concept aircraft are up to that, as it does take lots of lift and thrust, and the Flanker has plenty of both. brat
 
C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Air Force Brat said:
I may not have made myself clear, I was referring to the possibility that even the future indigenous Chinese carriers may include the ramp, from which the J-15s appear to launch quite nicely, hence my "if it ain't broke" comment. The J-31 may need more thrust, since that is open for discussion, and I'm not sure the Russian engines in the prototype/proof of concept aircraft are up to that, as it does take lots of lift and thrust, and the Flanker has plenty of both. brat
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I know. I was trying to clarify the fact that the combined STOBAR and CATOBAR layout of Ulyanovsk was the contingent outcome of midstream policy change, not the optimized result of long standing plan.

Everyone is arguing that Chinese carrier program is a carefully considered long term plan. If that is the case, then I am surprised they still chose to adopt the combined STOBAR/CATOBAR layout in their first indigenous carrier.

If they do chose to adopt this layout, then it would seem seem to betray a certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level to mimic the contingent turns in the Soviets path rather than plot a more direct route to the desired final outcome.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
chuck731 said:
If they do chose to adopt this layout, then it would seem seem to betray a certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level to mimic the contingent turns in the Soviets path rather than plot a more direct route to the desired final outcome.
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Or, it could also reflect a considetration of the various options, their budgetary constraints, their technical needs and their near to mid-term maritime needs and reflect what they consider to be the best option at this time.

If the 1st indegenous carrier is like the Liaoning, it will indicate to me that right now the PLAN and PRC leadership believe that such a design will give them the technical capabilities they need, will maximize the cost benefit for both carriers over their service life, and, if they design the second one appropriately, will also give them the opportunity, either from the outset...or, more likely, to later add waste cats and create a hybrid carrier at a time of their chosing that allows them to minimize risk in moving forward to a full-up CATOBAR design with their 2nd indegenous carrier.

Given the amount of time and money that they have spent, given the ongoing investment they have made in the carrier, the J-15 aircraft and training and logistical facilities, and given the very deliberate steps thay have taken over the last 10 years that we have been watching this, I believe that this is probably what has occurred as opposed to it reflecting a "certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level," on the PLAN's part But that's just my opinion.

I believe that refitting/rebuilding the VAryag into the Liaoning got them into the game and that they made improvements as they could in that process given what they had. I expect that the second carrier will continue that trend and reflect even more improvements (ie. potentially more hanger space, potentially more deck space with a smaller island, etc.)

Then, with their 2nd indegenous carrier, I expect a convetnionally powered CATOBAR with a slightly larger displacement, maybe 80,000 tons.

We shall just have to wait and see.
 
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C

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Jeff Head said:
Or, it could also reflect a considetration of the various options, their budgetary constraints, their technical needs and their near to mid-term maritime needs and reflect what they consider to be the best option at this time.

If the 1st indegenous carrier is like the Liaoning, it will indicate to me that right now the PLAN and PRC leadership believe that such a design will give them the technical capabilities they need, will maximize the cost benefit for both carriers over their service life, and, if they design the second one appropriately, will also give them the opportunity, either from the outset...or, more likely, to later add waste cats and create a hybrid carrier at a time of their chosing that allows them to minimize risk in moving forward to a full-up CATOBAR design with their 2nd indegenous carrier.

Given the amount of time and money that they have spent, given the ongoing investment they have made in the carrier, the J-15 aircraft and training and logistical facilities, and given the very deliberate steps thay have taken over the last 10 years that we have been watching this, I believe that this is probably what has occurred as opposed to it reflecting a "certain lack of intellectual independence at the highest level," on the PLAN's part But that's just my opinion.

I believe that refitting/rebuilding the VAryag into the Liaoning got them into the game and that they made improvements as they could in that process given what they had. I expect that the second carrier will continue that trend and reflect even more improvements (ie. potentially more hanger space, potentially more deck space with a smaller island, etc.)

Then, with their 2nd indegenous carrier, I expect a convetnionally powered CATOBAR with a slightly larger displacement, maybe 80,000 tons.

We shall just have to wait and see.
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Granted, they might be driven by initial risk reduction decision to not mess too much with Varyag's original design, which constrained them design their initial carrier aircrafts for ramp STOBAR. This has the knock on effect of making it appear more economical to make their second carrier adaptable to the same aircrafts, and so on.

They may envision a lengthy transition period from a begining with the pure STOBAR Liaoning to an eventual pure CATOBAR super-carrier with several intermdiate mixed STOBAR/CATOBAR ships in between to leverage J-15. If this is the plan, then it would suggest they envision the first pure CATOBAR carrier to come online as J-15, and perhaps even Liaoning herself, is nearing the end of frontline service live in maybe 20 years.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
chuck731 said:
...suggest they envision the first pure CATOBAR carrier to come online as J-15, and perhaps even Liaoning herself, is nearing the end of frontline service live in maybe 20 years.
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Well, let's suppose that they have already started building the Liaoning II. They could finish it in the next four years, and commission it 2 years later...and have it operational two after that (supposing that things go well with both the 1st Liaoning and the J-15).

Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.

Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.

Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.

But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.

If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Jeff Head said:
Well, let's suppose that they have already started building the Liaoning II. They could finish it in the next four years, and commission it 2 years later...and have it operational two after that (supposing that things go well with both the 1st Liaoning and the J-15).

Let's further suppose that with everything going well with the 1st Liaoning and the J-15, that they settle on a CATOBAR design and their go forward policy six years from now (as the Liaoning II is commissioned) and start building that CATOBAR design. Aggressive but doable if everything goes well.

Give them five years for building the first of class CATOBAR, which means that they launch it eleven years from now, and potentially have it operational in fifteen.

Now, this makes some hefty suppositions, that the 2nd STOBAR is already building and that nothing but positive, good things happen and they stay on course that whole time.

But, the Chinese could do this in the next fifteen years and have two Liaoning type carriers and one full up CATOBAR carrier in that time frame. That's the soonest I see it happening now.

If they experience any difficult problems, that all gets pushed back.
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Exactly, and all may remember I was the no ramp dude when I joined this forum, I did not like ramps, I thought they were much more dangerous and archaic, but thanks to a certain grumpy Dutchmen, "this spoken lovingly Master Delft", I have seen the LIGHT, well anyway, I have accepted that the Flanker/J-15 is a very happy aircraft due to its pussy-cat, hi-lift, hi thrust nature, if you don't believe me, watch that crazy botched approach, and the "insane" recovery on the Admiral K. The Chinese have done very well on the Liaoning, and I will give their training and the lovely J-15 most of the credit,
"yes, I do admire the Chinese Naval Aviators, and they have invested a lot of time and money in flight training, making their first approaches, touch and goes, and coming aboard look like a piece of cake. I fully expect them to continue to operate the J-15s off the ramp on their next carrier, likely to be fitted or prepared for waist cats for the CODs, etc, etc,. brat
 
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