PLAN Anti-Piracy Deployments

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

bd popeye said:

As a 57 year old man who's done a lot of living..I agree with Jeff.

To me the Pirates are nothing more than criminals that need to be dealt with as such. Simple. The point of a gun is the best way to accomplish this.

A couple of years ago you guys were not crying for the pirates when they attacked the Chinese civilian ship and those brave Chinese merchant men fought back? Remember that?(just go to the first page of this thread) I do..It's no different today. The pirates are criminals and need to be dealt with accordling. Simple.

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I have no problem of "what is better to do to deal with criminals" idealogy;
I have no problem in confirning piracy is one of the WORST kind of criminals;

From the previous posts I read, I do have problem to see through the fact - that the current debated "helping somania's neighbor to 'influence' somania people to the 'right track'."

How about some USA neighbors to "help to influence american people", when the USA is still having slavery? Should those "international intervene" being enforced the same way to America during that time?

Call the above comments as political, call the above comments as off topic, MY POINT IS:

Some "measure" applied to a whole nation, or to a whole bunch of race, or a whole settled residents of people in a certain area (call it "tribe" if easier understanding)...... Foreign power never make domestic problem better. Anyone REALLY believe foreign power can be REALLY GOOD, I tend to hypothesis foreign intervene to American slavery history era to "hurt the feeling".

Let people sort their own stuff/sh*t out THEIRSELF! Deal with them only when they harm the international interests (like pirates "hit the water", then deal the pirates). - It looks kind of "costy", but it is still MUCH CHEAPER than "deal the sh*t for them".

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Jeff Head said:

Sorry...we disagree fundamentally.

Piracy will never be solved by relief efforts, or trying to lend a helping hand to the pirates.

Piracy has always been solved by crushing and killing the pirates.

Now, as to the wider issue, the people of Somalia are going to have to rise up and create opportunities for themselves and esablish a government that can bring peace to their nation. It will take risk and probably a lot of sacrifice...as it has anywhere else.

If the people are determined to do that...then relief efforts will have some meaning for them. No one can force it on them, make them do it, or just hand it to them.

But the small segment that chooses to embark on pirating (and it is a very small proportion) will have to be handled harshly if the sea lanes are to be kept safe.

History teaches us this is so.
Anyhow...just adding that opinion and belief here...not trying to get into an arguement or contest of opinions. Clearly, different people feel differently about it.

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The problem is, Somali Piracy is merely a symptom. Somali pirates prey on foreign merchant vessels because the pay is lucrative. A very simple deterrent against piracy would be for merchant vessels to keep armed security guards, yet no one private shipping company is willing to do that simply because it's less cost-effective than simply paying the ransom.

This tells us two things:

1- It is simply not cost-effective to try to shut down the piracy operations in Somalia
2- Even if piracy is shut down, if the political situation in Somalia is not stabilized, those people will simply turn into other criminal activities.

In addition, your contention that only a small segment of the population embarks on piracy, while technically true, ignores a big chunk of truth: namely that, the number of pirates in Somalia is chiefly limited by the number of piracy opportunities, much like a predator-prey relationship. If you simply destroy the existing pirate gangs, new gangs will take their place shortly after.

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

solarz said:

The problem is, Somali Piracy is merely a symptom. Somali pirates prey on foreign merchant vessels because the pay is lucrative. A very simple deterrent against piracy would be for merchant vessels to keep armed security guards, yet no one private shipping company is willing to do that simply because it's less cost-effective than simply paying the ransom.

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Do you have any idea of the number of armed guards you will need? As with any economic market, as demand vastly increases, so will cost if supply cannot keep pace. If everyone started hiring armed guards, the cost of guards will skyrocket.

Not to mention the various political and security issues armed guards will cause ship owners and local authorities. Since many ports are close to population centers, and given the various political differences countries have, it will simply be unacceptable for many countries to accept large numbers of heavily armed people coming into their territory on a regular basis from countries they do not like or trust.

Can you imagine the US allowing Iranian, or anyone else's for that matter, ships can dock while armed to the teeth?

Given the numbers of guards you will need, it will only be a matter of time before there are 'incidents' involving armed guards on shore leave, whether its just to settle a drunken brawl or to try and make some 'easy money' ripping off a local bank/porn brokers/jewelers/etc, or simply running a little arms smuggling side operation etc.

Its just impractical, will become prohibitively expensive and potentially far more dangerous and disruptive to have tens, if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed men traveling all over the world on a regular basis.

This tells us two things:

1- It is simply not cost-effective to try to shut down the piracy operations in Somalia
2- Even if piracy is shut down, if the political situation in Somalia is not stabilized, those people will simply turn into other criminal activities.

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Disagree, I do not think it is not cost effective to shut them down, but rather no-one wants to get their hands dirty.

Right now, as much as 90% of the pirates captured return to circulation soon after their capture as no-one wants to be stuck with them. As cold blooded as it sounds, if they just shot the lot of them and dumped them overboard, the number of pirates would drop dramatically, as not only will you be permanently removing those individuals from circulation, it a lot of their mates will probably decide to seek other employment as the consequences will no longer be just a slap on the wrist.

The current situation is perverse and positively encourages people to turn to piracy.

If there was a tiny chance of you being caught, and a 90% chance of being cut loose even if caught, while potentially making millions with every pirated ship, I would dare say a significant proportion of even western nations would go be a pirate.

As history has proven, capital punishment and aggressive naval actions solves the piracy problem. You discourage those who can be dissuaded by killing their buddies, and you kill the die hards who don't have the sense to quit.

If all those warships on patrol were ordered to simply sink all pirate ships, this entire problem will be but a memory in a year's time.

The main obstacles are the hostages and the bleeding hearts in the media.

The hostage problem can be somewhat mitigated by governments paying all ransoms in secret to get as many ships and men released as possible before they implement the new shoot to kill policy.

The real problem is that no government wants to be made into the bad guys beating up the pool little defenseless Somali ex-fisherman who just wanted to feed his starving kids with the best Russian caviar as the bleeding hearts in the media is bound to do as soon as you start being the least bit tough on these pirates.

No one wants to spend a lot of resources only to be made to look like the bad guys for doing the world a favor.

In addition, your contention that only a small segment of the population embarks on piracy, while technically true, ignores a big chunk of truth: namely that, the number of pirates in Somalia is chiefly limited by the number of piracy opportunities, much like a predator-prey relationship. If you simply destroy the existing pirate gangs, new gangs will take their place shortly after.

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Again, not true.

People are not mindless animals driven by instinct. People do not become pirates because of the call of nature. They make a conscious, calculated choice based on the risks, costs and rewards involved as well as many other factors such as alternatives.

If you massively increase risks and costs of being a pirate, while cutting the rewards by making it a criminal offense to pay ransoms, rational people will quickly choose an alternative means of making a living. It might be crap and will probably not be anything you or I would want to do, but frankly, that is not my problem or concern. Those who still remain as pirates despite this are probably so stupid or messed up that we will probably be doing future Somali generations a favor by removing them from the gene pool.

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

plawolf said:

Not to mention the various political and security issues armed guards will cause ship owners and local authorities. Since many ports are close to population centers, and given the various political differences countries have, it will simply be unacceptable for many countries to accept large numbers of heavily armed people coming into their territory on a regular basis from countries they do not like or trust.

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There are ways to restrict weapons to on board the ship only, such as setting up an armory and a quartermaster. Sailors who go on land on a foreign country have to (I assume) go through customs check anyway, which would prevent them from carrying weapons.

If there was a tiny chance of you being caught, and a 90% chance of being cut loose even if caught, while potentially making millions with every pirated ship, I would dare say a significant proportion of even western nations would go be a pirate.

As history has proven, capital punishment and aggressive naval actions solves the piracy problem. You discourage those who can be dissuaded by killing their buddies, and you kill the die hards who don't have the sense to quit.

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If that was true, then why haven't we managed to stop drug trafficking? The fact is, even with risks of death and injury, being able to make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a country where 20$ is a fortune will be well worth the risk of death/capture for many. It's not the 90% chance of not given a punishment when caught that's emboldening pirates. It's the low risk of being caught in the first place!

No one wants to spend a lot of resources only to be made to look like the bad guys for doing the world a favor.

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It's rather: No one wants to spend a lot of resources for little or no gain.

People are not mindless animals driven by instinct. People do not become pirates because of the call of nature. They make a conscious, calculated choice based on the risks, costs and rewards involved as well as many other factors such as alternatives.

If you massively increase risks and costs of being a pirate, while cutting the rewards by making it a criminal offense to pay ransoms, rational people will quickly choose an alternative means of making a living.

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You're right on the first part. The pirates themselves probably know better than we do how their trade works. They most likely realize that as long as they keep their operations small and infrequent enough, they can get away with big pay-days at no risk of retaliation.

That's why if the international community somehow did start a military blitz against piracy, it will stop piracy for a while. However, military blitzes cost money and can't be kept up forever. The moment the military escorts drop back to current levels, piracy will pop up again.

That is why the ONLY permanent solution is for Somalia to start policing its own.

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

China should also send its navy for looking drug cartels in Asian seas, this will also help operational capabilitys of PLAN and would give PLAN the chance to even engage and destroy drug dealers on the run who on occasions fight back with the naval authoritys with heavy weapons

drug cartels are increasingly using more and more sophisticated weapons and ways to smuggle drugs at sea would be definetaly something worth assesing

also "soft" vists to "friendly" ports would be an advantage

has PLAN ever visted Latin American countrys? or sailed through the Pacific?

as China deploys more and more surface assets does PLAN still make Z9 and Z8 helos? or do they just rely on the already operational helos to cover for new ships?

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

plawolf said:

Do you have any idea of the number of armed guards you will need? As with any economic market, as demand vastly increases, so will cost if supply cannot keep pace. If everyone started hiring armed guards, the cost of guards will skyrocket.

Not to mention the various political and security issues armed guards will cause ship owners and local authorities. Since many ports are close to population centers, and given the various political differences countries have, it will simply be unacceptable for many countries to accept large numbers of heavily armed people coming into their territory on a regular basis from countries they do not like or trust.

Can you imagine the US allowing Iranian, or anyone else's for that matter, ships can dock while armed to the teeth?

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A lot of those problems would be reduced if the armed guards only operated between the entry and exit points of known pirate infested waters.

A strict criteria involving standards as regards the security organisation and employment of guards would also have to be implemented.

Actually Ive been lead to believe a few developing nations eg 'Fiji" rely on sending a battalion or two of their soldiers on UN duty for the money, so why not station them as guards , under the control of the UN.

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

solarz said:

The problem is, Somali Piracy is merely a symptom. Somali pirates prey on foreign merchant vessels because the pay is lucrative. A very simple deterrent against piracy would be for merchant vessels to keep armed security guards, yet no one private shipping company is willing to do that simply because it's less cost-effective than simply paying the ransom.

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There are a whole host of issues with regards to hiring armed guards to protect merchant ships (some of which plawolf mentioned).

1. Ships registered in some countries do not allow any armed guards onboard.

2. Ships owned by some companies do not allow any armed guards onboard.

3. Almost all countries do not allow ships with arms to enter their port limits without diplomatic clearance.

4. The arms qualification of the guards may not be recognised by the various countries that the ship they are guarding is required to call at.

5. The armed guards may decide to rob the ship themselves, as demonstrated by this curious case:

North Korean Crew Overpowers Hijackers Off Somali Coast

2007-10-30 17:30

Gunmen who seized a North Korean ship late Monday off the coast of Somalia were overpowered by the crew hours later. As Nick Wadhams reports from Nairobi, the hijacking was the latest incident in what has become an increasingly lucrative business for pirates prowling the waters of the lawless country.

The East African Seafarers' Assistance Program says the hijackers seized the vessel late Monday with two dozen sailors aboard. It said the crew managed to overpower its attackers Tuesday.

Assistance program leader Andrew Mwangura says the hijacking may have been a case of a business deal gone wrong, because those responsible appeared to be associated with the vessel's shipping agent.

He says that the hijackers have extensive knowledge of international shipping law and know that U.S.-led coalition warships in international waters will not reach them.

"According to the information these are not pirates, but these are the security guards hired by the local agents of the ship," said Mwangura. "So we think this might be business gone sour. You know there are these weak international laws and you know these gunmen, they are clever and they know much about international laws and some of them have a military background."

The seizure of the vessel was only the latest this year. The International Maritime Bureau says there have been at least 26 reported hijackings off the Somali coast in 2007 and several boats in the region are currently being held by gunmen. The real number is likely to be higher because some hijackings go unreported.

Officials and experts say that seizing the boats is a lucrative business for the hijackers. Ransom is often paid to win the release of the ships and their crews.

Somalia has been without an effective government since 1991, meaning there is no one from the national government patrolling its territorial waters.

An analyst with the International Maritime Bureau, Cyrus Nody, tells VOA the pirates are in little danger of getting nabbed unless coalition forces intervene, which is rare.

"That is one of the biggest reasons why the pirates have a free hand pretty much doing whatever they want along the coastline," said Nody. "At this point of time, for hijackings Somalia is a very very dangerous place. Hijacking for them is an easy source of money more than anything else. What exactly happens to the money after it has been paid is extremely debatable."

The U.S. Navy said coalition forces patrolling the Red Sea region had opened fire on pirates who seized a chemical tanker on Sunday, destroying speedboats the hijackers typically use in their raids.

Vessels often have little choice but to pass along the Somali coast, which sits along an important shipping route between the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. Boats are urged to stay 200 nautical miles from the coast, but many drift closer. The area has also been plagued by illegal fishing.

The problem of piracy off Somalia has gotten so bad that the U.N. Security Council has urged member nations to be vigilant and protect merchant ships and U.N. agencies transporting humanitarian goods through the area.

News provided by VOA.

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Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

The Danish Navy was in a firefight with the Somali pirates. 4 pirates were killed and 10 wounded. No Danish personel or hostages were hurt.

Bravo Zulu!

CNN) -- After a firefight with suspected Somali pirates, Danish sailors freed 16 Iranian hostages on board an alleged mother ship, according to the Danish Royal Navy.

Four suspected pirates were killed and 10 wounded during the firefight Thursday, the Royal Navy said on its website. No one on board the Danish ship Esbern Snare was hurt, and the hostages were also not injured.

The Esbern Snare closed in on the suspected pirate mother ship Thursday while patrolling off the coast of Somalia, according to the statement. "When Esbern Snare tried to stop the mother ship with calls, the mother ship opened fire on Esbern Snare, which immediately returned fire," the statement said.

After the firefight, the crew could see weapons being thrown overboard from the suspected mother ship, and "there were signs of the pirates surrendering," the statement said. The crew then took control of the ship.

Sixteen hostages and 28 suspected pirates were on board, along with several weapons and some equipment, the Navy said. Four pirates had been killed and 10 wounded in the firefight, while 14 others were unharmed, said the statement.

The 10 injured were being treated onboard the Esbern Snare, the Royal Navy said. The four suspected pirates who were killed were buried at sea "in accordance with NATO procedures with regards to Muslim traditions."

The 16 Iranians "can look forward to a quick reunion with their respective families," according to the statement.

All the suspected pirates were being held onboard the Esbern Snare while Danish authorities looked into possible prosecution, the Navy said.

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Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

bd popeye said:

The Danish Navy was in a firefight with the Somali pirates. 4 pirates were killed and 10 wounded. No Danish personel or hostages were hurt.

Bravo Zulu!

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That brings to mind the first time China sent a naval detachment off to Somalia waters, it was accompanied by a stirring speech by a commander warning that woe will befall anyone messing with boats going about their lawful business, while under their watch.
I remember thinking at the time that this could be interesting, but as it is turning out, China's involvement has been quite circumspect with no incidences of the Chinese navy blasting the "living bejeezers" out of the pirates. What a pity.

Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

So far, the most China did were warning shots to scare off pirate boats, nothing as heavy handed as the West or Russian did.