PLAN Anti-Piracy Deployments

C

ccL1

New Member
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

So based on all this information, is it right to accuse one side of provoking the other or not? I mean, is the Indian submarine wrong for what it did or are the Chinese ships wrong for what they did? Or did both follow proper maritime laws/etiquette?

Sorry. Excuse my lack of international naval protocol.
 
bladerunner

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

bd popeye said:
:
I agree with crobato in that the PLAN should have know the risk of subs while transiting the Indian Ocean.
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That means they can realistically expect to be trailed by other navies, while on station, for all we know the other navies might have done undetected.
However its a good training scenario for the chinese navy. Would be good if someone can tell us the protocol one goes through when the trailing sub gets detected.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

When there is news about Chinese military, the first thing you have to do is to justify if the news is true or fake.

The Chinese vessels to force an unidentified sub to surface is a big news. I haven't posted a single reply about the topic because I want to hear what the experts would say about it. Now, sina.com has posted a news confirming that the event was fake. What do you guys think about that?

For those who can read Chinese, please come and have a look.
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Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

If this was true, it is very interesting indeed. However a few things stick out as odd to me.

1) The Kilo is a diesel electric submarine. Wouldn't it have difficulty keeping up with the Chinese battlegroup (or whatever you want to call it), especially if they were trailing them for 7 days and crossing the entire Indian Ocean?

2) How exactly would the Chinese "force the submarine to surface"? Nothing they can do would "force" them to surface. Even if they had them cornered and were pinging away, the sub commander would far prefer to turn around and move away, rather than admit defeat and risk international embarassment by surfacing. Although that comment plawolf made earlier largely clears this issue up if it is true.

In any case this is sort of blind mans bluff type activity is an excellent experience builder, but it works both ways. The Indians (or whoever it was) learned from it too. However I get the sense that the Chinese naval establishment is much more dynamic and able to really absrob lessons from experience then the Indian Navy is.

IF, that is, this really happened. That's always a doubt with stories like this, particularly with the PLAN, seeing as they are so secretive.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Finn McCool said:
1) The Kilo is a diesel electric submarine. Wouldn't it have difficulty keeping up with the Chinese battlegroup (or whatever you want to call it), especially if they were trailing them for 7 days and crossing the entire Indian Ocean?
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100% agreed! a diesel electric submarine uses its battery for sailing submerged. It doesn't have enough power and speed to follow up a surface vessel which travel at 17 ~ 20 knots, especially when it has to trail the vessels for 7 days across the whole Indian Ocean.

Well, it's quite embarressed for us, the sinodefenceforum members, who have discussed the case like it really happened. Next time, when we see a news on internet, don't trust it too quickly.
 
C

ccL1

New Member
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Is it really fake or not? I don't know anymore.

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Source: Times of India

Indian submarines, maritime reconnaissance aircraft and warships closely tracked, "buzzed'' and photographed two Chinese destroyers and a supply ship making their way to the Gulf of Aden off Somalia recently for anti-piracy patrols.

Chinese media reports, however, now contend that the two Chinese destroyers, Wuhan and Haikou, among the most-powerful in the People's Liberation Army-Navy fleet, had "forced'' an Indian Kilo-class submarine stalking them to "surface'' after cornering it following a chase.

The Chinese warships even "launched'' a helicopter, armed with torpedoes, against the Indian submarine during the "tense standoff'' near Bab el-Mandab Strait, which separates Yemen and Djibouti, on January 15. After surfacing, the submarine left without any further confrontation, said the reports.

Asked about this, the Navy spokesperson only said, "No Indian submarine surfaced in that area. Moreover, nobody can force anybody to surface in international waters.''

Sources, however, said the Indian Navy had indeed "spooked'' the Chinese warships "several times'' during their transit, right from Malacca Strait to the Somali waters. "Every advanced navy does it. Most of the times, it does not become public knowledge,'' said a source.
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Also

This latest incident is not the first time Indian Navy has spooked the Chinese. As earlier reported by TOI, Navy had photographed three new Chinese submarines in the Mediterranean region as well as a new destroyer off Yemen's Socotra Island in separate incidents in 2006.
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Chinese submarines in the Mediterranean region? Really?
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Finn McCool said:
If this was true, it is very interesting indeed. However a few things stick out as odd to me.

1) The Kilo is a diesel electric submarine. Wouldn't it have difficulty keeping up with the Chinese battlegroup (or whatever you want to call it), especially if they were trailing them for 7 days and crossing the entire Indian Ocean?
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A single sub couldn't do it alone, nor it can be fast enough. You need a string of ships and subs to do it.

2) How exactly would the Chinese "force the submarine to surface"? Nothing they can do would "force" them to surface. Even if they had them cornered and were pinging away, the sub commander would far prefer to turn around and move away, rather than admit defeat and risk international embarassment by surfacing. Although that comment plawolf made earlier largely clears this issue up if it is true.
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If you keep on pinging, the noise can be quite a bother.

In any case this is sort of blind mans bluff type activity is an excellent experience builder, but it works both ways. The Indians (or whoever it was) learned from it too. However I get the sense that the Chinese naval establishment is much more dynamic and able to really absrob lessons from experience then the Indian Navy is.

IF, that is, this really happened. That's always a doubt with stories like this, particularly with the PLAN, seeing as they are so secretive.
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Subs trailing ships or other subs to gather signatures in international waters should happen all the time. There should be some common protocols like game rules in this game of cat and mouse that all navies observe, especially with the submarine fleets. Official deniability from the two parties involved is one of them. In other words, what happens at sea or underwater stays at sea. Somehow this event managed to reach the media.

A sub with good long range sensors could have probably eavesdrop the signatures---yeah, a good sub can operate like an underwater AWACS---while keeping the ships at range. I get the impression that the Kilos don't belong this category and had to come close enough to the PLAN fleet to be a bother.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Crobato: It's sound like you believe event (Chinese vessels vs Indian Kilos) is true. If you can find out where were the Chinese vessels on that day (Jan 15), we probably find the answer. To me, honestly, I doubt the event.

I agree with a statement ccL1 posted above
nobody can force anybody to surface in international waters.
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I would like to ask you a question: Generally, if a naval vessel find out it is be trailed by a submarine, what would it do? Because, as the report said, the Chinese vessels after finding out the submarine, they chased it, corner it and forced it to surface. To me, this sound too "hostile".
 
crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

nobody can force anybody to surface in international waters.
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Rules of engagement. The sub is required to surface and show its flag. This is to indicate peaceful intent. If the sub had tracked, approached to a certain distance like in torpedo range distance, continued to approach even after warning, pinged the surface vessels that seemed to have indicated an aggressive manner without indication of its nationality and intent, yup, the ships could have sunk the sub, and raise self defense as the cause.

The sub would have also known from the ping, that the ships are priming and locking the torpedoes onto it. That's when its a good time to surface and show the flag.

I think the PLAN would have learned of this straight hand from dealing with other navies as well, and knows what it would be on the underwater side about their own subs stalking other ships as well.

Yup, this could have been an ugly international incident.
 
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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Somali pirates and Chinese navy

Not saying I'm sure the story is true, however.

Finn McCool said:
If this was true, it is very interesting indeed. However a few things stick out as odd to me.

1) The Kilo is a diesel electric submarine. Wouldn't it have difficulty keeping up with the Chinese battlegroup (or whatever you want to call it), especially if they were trailing them for 7 days and crossing the entire Indian Ocean?
Click to expand...

Except the Chinese task force was conducting escort missions. There are clearly advertised staging areas for civilian ships to meet up with the PLAN destroyers so they can form convoys. A sub doesn't need to follow the warships, all it needs to do is wait for them to come to it.

IF, that is, this really happened. That's always a doubt with stories like this, particularly with the PLAN, seeing as they are so secretive.
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The BBC is reporting that CCTV ran the story. If that is true, then that is a big boost to the credibility of this claim, as CCTV should have the right contacts to know for sure if this is true or not.
 
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